Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 16:45:24 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
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Hi,
no, I don't think the tires, per se, are harmful or rough on your used
steering racks.........
assuming everything else is correct.
I don't particularly like D load range tires. I like them on the rear
though. I like C's all around, or C's in front, D's in rear.
there is a distinct handling advantage ( perhaps 5 to 10 % in neutral
handling, as opposed to 'boat handling' or pig terminal understeer ) by
having stiffer rear tires. Wider really helps too.
so I like all C's, or all D's , or front C, rear D's.
I never run front tire pressure over about 38 psi cold.
I wouldn't put 50 psi in the cold in the front, I don't think.
how are did your rack fail ?
what exactly gave out ? The most glaring example of a manual rack going
south that I know of is....
I let a guy use a vanagon of mine for over a year.
When I finally got it back, it had a solid 2 inches of play measured at the
edge of the steering wheel. ( manual steering ) .
I figured a drive disc had gone south.
nope.........what happened was where the rack comes out of the right end of
the rack housing......that bushing there was all ovaled out, allowing about
a fat eighth inch up-down play there, which translated into steering slop.
I have never seen this before or since.
A manual steering rack on a vanagon with me driving .........I expect one to
last indeffenitely.
I am easy on equipment, and keep everything with in spec, well lubed etc.
later I observed what probably did that rack in.
the guy .....I was watching him back his own van out of my shop, and when it
came time to turn the wheel to turn the van in the right direction,
he didn't pull on the steering wheel, and he didn't let the van be moving a
little when he turned it either - he JERKED the streering wheel.
Hard too. he also weighed about 350 lbs or more.
I'm pretty sure that's what did in that rack.
other factors -
for sure, wheel and tire roundness, and balance.
People are always after 'balance' ..........many times tires and wheels are
out of round.
Shocks...........some people think the shocks just cushion or control the
ride. They do far more than that ! The protect the suspension from sudden
forces.
Driving with worn or weak shocks contributes significantly to wearing out
the front end.
alingment of course - that's got to be well in the ball park.
driving style.........and where you drive.
if you are hitting pot holes at speed all the time, with 50 psi in Load
Range D tires ......
I'd expect it to be rough on things, including the rack.
my first thoughts go to -
1. ...................fronts suspension has to be decent. Not all brand new
rebuilt - but no obvious slop or play anywhere.
2. shocks have to be damping well, they can't be 20 years old.
I like really premium shocks myself, HD Bilsteins.
3. Alignment ...........has to be medium close at least. I get them 'darn
good' with my tricks on a flat smooth floor in my shop. I can measure toe
pretty accurately, and castor pretty accurately, and I have a way to tell if
castor is about right, and if it's the same left to right. Checking how
the wheels tilt when they are turned left and right.....even seeing what a
known-good vanagon acts like there..........checking the outward tilt of the
front wheels, at full right and left steering lock .....
at least I can tell when it's pretty close.
4. tires, and tire pressures. as I said, I don't go above 38 psi cold in
the front usually, Rears must be 4 to 6 psi more. Rear shocks have to be
good.
they affect the front end too.
5. - worn springs ? is it saggy or low ? just a thought.
6. also ..........
14 inch wheels and tires on vanagons.
I have run numerous different 14 inch set ups, and having a dozen vans, I
can swap sets of tires from one to another, to see how it affects handling
and ride.
lately, I got into 15 inch steel south african wheels - a 'true' vanagon 15
inch wheel ( I am fairly down on spacers, adapters etc for fitting late audi
wheels etc ) ....
and Michelin Agilles 205/65 R 15 C tires.
those tires used to be about $ 105 each. Now they are 150 each .....but SO
worth it.
I always noticed when I put new heavy duty Bilsteinss shocks on the front
.........they didn't make the ride and handling brilliant on my vanagon.
On my turbo volvo sedan, and older mercedes sedan - those shocks make the
car 'brilliant' shock-wise ......
perfect damping, subtle ride, super control............like really a joy to
feel and drive.
but on vanagons with 14 inch wheels and tires, vanagon rated tires too....
they were like 'so what' .........not brilliant, felt like normal ok used
shocks.
BUT .........with the 15 inch michelis agiiles, in that size ...205/65 R 15
C .......
now my vanagon does ride and handle brilliantly.
I was going to sell my 85 Adventurewagon ..........but ........well,
re-doing the interior got discouraging .........then I got a Eurovan cheap
with the Agilles tires on it....so.........swapparoo ....and Bingo ! ....
now I'm carving winding curves in the 45 to 55 range, and hitting 65 on the
straights between curves on a winding canyon road.
and the van feels PLANTED to the road......
very, very controlled, yet responsive and dyamamic too.
'maybe' .......a 14 inch tire with a stiff enough side wall can get close to
that.
What I also have found out in many, many sets of tires and wheels ( I
actually own around 95 mounted and balanced tires , beleive it or
not......got a fetich for them, always picking up good used ones to try out
etc. .......this is counting about 9 vanagons and several other vehicles )
....
anwway,
what I now believe is that you can not really make up for lack of sidewall
stiffness with tire pressure.
You need good stiff sidewalls for proper vanagon handling.
I havn't driven those vanco's so can't really say about them ............but
I can say that ......side wall stiffness is very, very important, tires
pressures shouldn't be too high in front especially ..........and the 15
inch michelin agiless in 205/65 R 15 C is nigh perfect.
I've often put the pressure up pretty high for a trip with a lot of stuff on
board.............a few hours later out on the freeway ........things all
hot and warmed up ........and the ride felt too stiff........and I let out
some air pressure - immediate improvement. 'too high' on the tire pressures
isn't really right.
My normal recommendation would be in the mid to high 30's on the front (
32 to 38 roughly )
and 6 psi more in the rear. Measured cold. And up to maybe 48 cold in the
rear. I don't think I'd ever go above that, measured cold.
in general, don't let air out of a hot tire, unless it's insanely much too
high pressure.
oh ........
and some people are just rough on equipment, and don't even know it.
Iv'e seen vanagon drivers that will rip the shifter right out of the floor
eventually.
I've seen a guy that short shifted every last shift .......take it to 1,500
,or maybe 1,800 rpm max in each gear, then shift ( which is ok by itself )
......
but then floor it every time immeidately. he was lugging his engine *every
shfit * ! ......
short shift, then 100 % throttle........really rough on things.
if the engine can not keep up with throttle ........that's lugging. Don't
push it harder than it can repsond to.
no wonder his fully rebuilt 1.6 TD was using oil badly, in only 40some
thousand miles - likely he just pounded out the piston ring grooves from
lugging badly every last shift.
and .......there is no one to critic people's driving. So they could be
really tough on stuff, and not even know it. I have seen it a lot actually.
I have one freind, a total non-car person. Can barely check oil, maybe not
even that. I sold him an 85 GL.
I figured they'd likely have bad luck with it ..........I jokingly said to
them,........I can't believe how well you guys do with this van ........I
thought it would blow up long ago.
And nothing ever changes on that van. Two plus years........the tires don't
look more worn ......etc.
Working on it one time .......I said to my friend Robert - 'you must drive
this thing pretty nicely, even gently."
he said he did.
Riding with him..........he tended to be at 2,300 rpm and 25 % throttle max,
all the time.
A bit too gently actually ......
but very, very little wears on that van .
so .........driving style has a LOT to do with it.
I drive fast.......but I never drive hard. My turbo volvo sedan isn't happy
until 80 even .......it's got such high gearing you can downshift out of top
gear at 90, and it doesn't care .......that would put it right at mid-range
in 3rd.....awesome car.
I have never even flat floored it wide open,. I drive fast, just not
brutally on the equipment.
same for racing car drivers.......
the really brillant ones are fast, and easy on equipment, others just
destroy stuff.
Same in Alberta on the coal sands giant trucks - the ones that are 4 stories
tall, and have 20 foot tall tires - both men and women drive them. They last
better with women driving them. It's a big factor, the driver, and driving
style.
sorry it got so long !
Scott
turbovans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Stanhope" <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
Scott, I installed a used manual steering rack only 15K mi. ago. Am i going
to be doing this every 15K mi.? is it possible im bustin them because i run
8-ply Conti Vanco load range D?...round 45-50psi?....and Florida potholes
combined with a heavy westy? Do Power racks take beatings better than the
manual racks?...if so.....i suppose i could convert it altho, i like not
having a zillion pumps and pullys on my i4. (More power/MPG's)
thanks!
Phil 84' Westy no AC, No PS from the factory. Tiico'ed in 2001
--- On Sun, 8/9/09, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
wrote:
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 12:53 AM
they ( Maval ) may not supply manual steering racks.
I tried to see their exact product list,
but so far only saw :
Products Offered:
a.. Power Rack & Pinion Steering Units
b.. Power Steering Pumps
c.. Power Steering Gear Boxes
d.. Electric Steering Columns and Gears!
so perhaps they do not supply rebuilt manual ones.
I can supply a good used one though.
Scot
www.turbovans.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Rodgers" <inua@CHARTER.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
> Ken Wilford at Vanagain.com sells the Mavel Rebuilt rack - or at least
> did. I have bought two from him. And they have the lifetime warranty.
> Never had a problem with either unit.
>
> John Rodgers
> 88 GL Driver
>
> Anthony Egeln wrote:
>> The Maval racks have a lifetime warranty....done the warranty once
>> already.
>>
>> http://www.mavalgear.com/
>>
>> But you may have to go through a retailer to get one.......which is a
>> pain because once they make their cut they don't want to talk to you
>> again.
>>
>> See if you can buy directly..........and let us know if that is the case.
>>
>> BTW, I think the key thing is too flush the system thoroughly, to remove
>> old fluid and metal. Otherwise supposedly they invalidate your warranty.
>>
>> Good luck!
>> Anthony
>> '89 Syncro GL (Hidalgo)
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 8/8/09, Phil Stanhope <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>>
>> From: Phil Stanhope <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM>
>> Subject: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 8:00 AM
>>
>> So the 2nd manual steering rack i installed is already showing a little
>> play on one side....prolly needs replacement....These racks arent beefy
>> enough for heavy Westys IMO. Does anyone know a place i can send it to
>> have it rebuilt?
>> thanks!Phil 84' Westy Tiico'ed in 2001
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 8/8/09, David Beierl <dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET> wrote:
>>
>> From: David Beierl <dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET>
>> Subject: Re: New lister & first time owner of '87 Vanagon GL
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 4:53 AM
>>
>> At 03:32 AM 8/8/2009, Douglas and Annie Dodson-Mäuck wrote:
>>
>>> I still have questions to pose yet it's late and I'm feeling tired so
>>> I'll sign off for now.
>>>
>>
>> Welcome aboard!
>>
>> --
>> David Beierl - Providence RI USA --
>> http://pws.prserv.net/synergy/Vanagon/
>> '89 Po' White Star "Scamp"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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