Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:38:47 -0700
Reply-To: Phil Stanhope <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Phil Stanhope <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
In-Reply-To: <292180.55096.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
oops... i re-read my post i meant to say "fast forward 5 years and two manual steering racks not "two manual trannys."
darnit
-Phil 84' Westy Tiico'ed in 2001
--- On Mon, 8/10/09, Phil Stanhope <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
From: Phil Stanhope <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 12:17 PM
I think you gave me a clue Scott. 5 years ago i pressed in new upper A-arm bushings passenger side. Either i pressed them in badly or they were defected bushings because that A-arm has a small rattle/play at the bushings. Fast forward 5 years and two manual trannys....perhaps this loose bushing is my culprit? I have installed new front Bilsteins round 05'(Yellow ones)....275-75-R15 Conti Vanco 8's (Load Range-D) on Steel 15"SA rims. I did all new front suspension bushings in 05'and always got a pro-shop to do my alignment after steering rack swaps/bushing replacements. Oh yeah Addco Sways Front and rear.
This used rack was solid when i installed it, but looked like the oil in it was old/dried up so i greased the teeth and installed new boots.
So ive got a spare A-arm that im going to take to a pro with a
VW press-key designed for vanagon bushings. I didnt have that special VW key but i SWORE i had those bushings seated all the way around, tack welded in place.....but you never know, if you are shade tree mechanic like me:)
Phil 84' Westy, Tiico'ed in 02'
--- On Sun, 8/9/09, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
> To: "Phil Stanhope" <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM>, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 7:45 PM
> Hi,
> no, I don't think the tires, per se, are harmful or rough
> on your used steering racks.........
> assuming everything else is correct.
>
> I don't particularly like D load range tires. I like them
> on the rear though. I like C's all around, or C's in
> front, D's in rear.
> there is a distinct handling advantage ( perhaps 5 to 10 %
> in neutral handling, as opposed to 'boat handling' or pig
> terminal understeer ) by having stiffer rear tires. Wider
> really helps too.
> so I like all C's, or all D's , or front C, rear D's.
> I never run front tire pressure over about 38 psi cold.
> I wouldn't put 50 psi in the cold in the front, I don't
> think.
>
> how are did your rack fail ?
> what exactly gave out ? The most glaring example of a
> manual rack going south that I know of is....
> I let a guy use a vanagon of mine for over a year.
> When I finally got it back, it had a solid 2 inches of play
> measured at the edge of the steering wheel. ( manual
> steering ) .
> I figured a drive disc had gone south.
> nope.........what happened was where the rack comes out of
> the right end of the rack housing......that bushing there
> was all ovaled out, allowing about a fat eighth inch up-down
> play there, which translated into steering slop.
> I have never seen this before or since.
> A manual steering rack on a vanagon with me driving
> .........I expect one to last indeffenitely.
> I am easy on equipment, and keep everything with in spec,
> well lubed etc.
> later I observed what probably did that rack in.
> the guy .....I was watching him back his own van out of my
> shop, and when it came time to turn the wheel to turn the
> van in the right direction,
> he didn't pull on the steering wheel, and he didn't let the
> van be moving a little when he turned it either - he JERKED
> the streering wheel.
> Hard too. he also weighed about 350 lbs or more.
> I'm pretty sure that's what did in that rack.
>
> other factors -
> for sure, wheel and tire roundness, and balance.
> People are always after 'balance' ..........many times
> tires and wheels are out of round.
> Shocks...........some people think the shocks just cushion
> or control the ride. They do far more than that ! The
> protect the suspension from sudden forces.
> Driving with worn or weak shocks contributes significantly
> to wearing out the front end.
>
> alingment of course - that's got to be well in the ball
> park.
> driving style.........and where you drive.
> if you are hitting pot holes at speed all the time, with 50
> psi in Load Range D tires ......
> I'd expect it to be rough on things, including the rack.
>
> my first thoughts go to -
> 1. ...................fronts suspension has to be
> decent. Not all brand new rebuilt - but no obvious
> slop or play anywhere.
>
> 2. shocks have to be damping well, they can't be 20
> years old.
> I like really premium shocks myself, HD Bilsteins.
>
> 3. Alignment ...........has to be medium close at
> least. I get them 'darn good' with my tricks on a flat
> smooth floor in my shop. I can measure toe pretty
> accurately, and castor pretty accurately, and I have a way
> to tell if castor is about right, and if it's the same left
> to right. Checking how the wheels tilt when
> they are turned left and right.....even seeing what a
> known-good vanagon acts like there..........checking the
> outward tilt of the front wheels, at full right and left
> steering lock .....
> at least I can tell when it's pretty close.
>
> 4. tires, and tire pressures. as I said, I don't go
> above 38 psi cold in the front usually, Rears must be 4 to 6
> psi more. Rear shocks have to be good.
> they affect the front end too.
> 5. - worn springs ? is it saggy or low ? just a
> thought.
> 6. also ..........
> 14 inch wheels and tires on vanagons.
> I have run numerous different 14 inch set ups, and having a
> dozen vans, I can swap sets of tires from one to another, to
> see how it affects handling and ride.
> lately, I got into 15 inch steel south african wheels - a
> 'true' vanagon 15 inch wheel ( I am fairly down on spacers,
> adapters etc for fitting late audi wheels etc ) ....
> and Michelin Agilles 205/65 R 15 C tires.
> those tires used to be about $ 105 each. Now they are 150
> each .....but SO worth it.
> I always noticed when I put new heavy duty Bilsteinss
> shocks on the front .........they didn't make the ride and
> handling brilliant on my vanagon.
> On my turbo volvo sedan, and older mercedes sedan - those
> shocks make the car 'brilliant' shock-wise ......
> perfect damping, subtle ride, super control............like
> really a joy to feel and drive.
> but on vanagons with 14 inch wheels and tires, vanagon
> rated tires too....
> they were like 'so what' .........not brilliant, felt like
> normal ok used shocks.
> BUT .........with the 15 inch michelis agiiles, in that
> size ...205/65 R 15 C .......
> now my vanagon does ride and handle brilliantly.
>
> I was going to sell my 85 Adventurewagon ..........but
> ........well, re-doing the interior got discouraging
> .........then I got a Eurovan cheap with the Agilles tires
> on it....so.........swapparoo ....and Bingo ! ....
> now I'm carving winding curves in the 45 to 55 range, and
> hitting 65 on the straights between curves on a winding
> canyon road.
> and the van feels PLANTED to the road......
> very, very controlled, yet responsive and dyamamic too.
>
> 'maybe' .......a 14 inch tire with a stiff enough side wall
> can get close to that.
> What I also have found out in many, many sets of tires and
> wheels ( I actually own around 95 mounted and balanced tires
> , beleive it or not......got a fetich for them, always
> picking up good used ones to try out etc. .......this is
> counting about 9 vanagons and several other vehicles ) ....
> anwway,
> what I now believe is that you can not really make up for
> lack of sidewall stiffness with tire pressure.
> You need good stiff sidewalls for proper vanagon handling.
> I havn't driven those vanco's so can't really say about
> them ............but I can say that ......side wall
> stiffness is very, very important, tires pressures shouldn't
> be too high in front especially ..........and the 15 inch
> michelin agiless in 205/65 R 15 C is nigh perfect.
>
> I've often put the pressure up pretty high for a trip with
> a lot of stuff on board.............a few hours later out on
> the freeway ........things all hot and warmed up ........and
> the ride felt too stiff........and I let out some air
> pressure - immediate improvement. 'too high' on the
> tire pressures isn't really right.
> My normal recommendation would be in the mid to high 30's
> on the front ( 32 to 38 roughly )
> and 6 psi more in the rear. Measured cold. And up to maybe
> 48 cold in the rear. I don't think I'd ever go above that,
> measured cold.
>
> in general, don't let air out of a hot tire, unless it's
> insanely much too high pressure.
> oh ........
> and some people are just rough on equipment, and don't even
> know it.
> Iv'e seen vanagon drivers that will rip the shifter right
> out of the floor eventually.
> I've seen a guy that short shifted every last shift
> .......take it to 1,500 ,or maybe 1,800 rpm max in each
> gear, then shift ( which is ok by itself ) ......
> but then floor it every time immeidately. he was lugging
> his engine *every shfit * ! ......
> short shift, then 100 % throttle........really rough on
> things.
> if the engine can not keep up with throttle ........that's
> lugging. Don't push it harder than it can repsond to.
> no wonder his fully rebuilt 1.6 TD was using oil badly, in
> only 40some thousand miles - likely he just pounded out the
> piston ring grooves from lugging badly every last shift.
>
> and .......there is no one to critic people's driving. So
> they could be really tough on stuff, and not even know it. I
> have seen it a lot actually.
> I have one freind, a total non-car person. Can barely check
> oil, maybe not even that. I sold him an 85 GL.
> I figured they'd likely have bad luck with it ..........I
> jokingly said to them,........I can't believe how well you
> guys do with this van ........I thought it would blow up
> long ago.
> And nothing ever changes on that van. Two plus
> years........the tires don't look more worn ......etc.
> Working on it one time .......I said to my friend Robert -
> 'you must drive this thing pretty nicely, even gently."
> he said he did.
> Riding with him..........he tended to be at 2,300 rpm and
> 25 % throttle max, all the time.
> A bit too gently actually ......
> but very, very little wears on that van .
> so .........driving style has a LOT to do with it.
>
> I drive fast.......but I never drive hard. My turbo volvo
> sedan isn't happy until 80 even .......it's got such high
> gearing you can downshift out of top gear at 90, and it
> doesn't care .......that would put it right at mid-range in
> 3rd.....awesome car.
> I have never even flat floored it wide open,. I drive
> fast, just not brutally on the equipment.
> same for racing car drivers.......
> the really brillant ones are fast, and easy on equipment,
> others just destroy stuff.
> Same in Alberta on the coal sands giant trucks - the ones
> that are 4 stories tall, and have 20 foot tall tires - both
> men and women drive them. They last better with women
> driving them. It's a big factor, the driver, and
> driving style.
>
> sorry it got so long !
> Scott
> turbovans
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Stanhope" <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 3:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
>
>
> Scott, I installed a used manual steering rack only 15K mi.
> ago. Am i going to be doing this every 15K mi.? is it
> possible im bustin them because i run 8-ply Conti Vanco load
> range D?...round 45-50psi?....and Florida potholes combined
> with a heavy westy? Do Power racks take beatings better than
> the manual racks?...if so.....i suppose i could convert it
> altho, i like not having a zillion pumps and pullys on my
> i4. (More power/MPG's)
> thanks!
> Phil 84' Westy no AC, No PS from the factory. Tiico'ed in
> 2001
> --- On Sun, 8/9/09, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
> wrote:
>
> From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
> Subject: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 12:53 AM
>
> they ( Maval ) may not supply manual steering racks.
> I tried to see their exact product list,
> but so far only saw :
>
> Products Offered:
>
> a.. Power Rack & Pinion Steering Units
> b.. Power Steering Pumps
> c.. Power Steering Gear Boxes
> d.. Electric Steering Columns and Gears!
> so perhaps they do not supply rebuilt manual ones.
> I can supply a good used one though.
> Scot
> www.turbovans.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Rodgers" <inua@CHARTER.NET>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
>
>
> > Ken Wilford at Vanagain.com sells the Mavel Rebuilt
> rack - or at least
> > did. I have bought two from him. And they have the
> lifetime warranty.
> > Never had a problem with either unit.
> >
> > John Rodgers
> > 88 GL Driver
> >
> > Anthony Egeln wrote:
> >> The Maval racks have a lifetime warranty....done
> the warranty once
> >> already.
> >>
> >> http://www.mavalgear.com/
> >>
> >> But you may have to go through a retailer to get
> one.......which is a
> >> pain because once they make their cut they don't
> want to talk to you
> >> again.
> >>
> >> See if you can buy directly..........and let us
> know if that is the case.
> >>
> >> BTW, I think the key thing is too flush the system
> thoroughly, to remove
> >> old fluid and metal. Otherwise supposedly they
> invalidate your warranty.
> >>
> >> Good luck!
> >> Anthony
> >> '89 Syncro GL (Hidalgo)
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Sat, 8/8/09, Phil Stanhope <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Phil Stanhope <surfmobile007@YAHOO.COM>
> >> Subject: Manual Steering Rack Rebuilder?
> >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> >> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 8:00 AM
> >>
> >> So the 2nd manual steering rack i installed is
> already showing a little
> >> play on one side....prolly needs
> replacement....These racks arent beefy
> >> enough for heavy Westys IMO. Does anyone know a
> place i can send it to
> >> have it rebuilt?
> >> thanks!Phil 84' Westy Tiico'ed in 2001
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Sat, 8/8/09, David Beierl <dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: David Beierl <dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET>
> >> Subject: Re: New lister & first time owner of
> '87 Vanagon GL
> >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> >> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 4:53 AM
> >>
> >> At 03:32 AM 8/8/2009, Douglas and Annie
> Dodson-Mäuck wrote:
> >>
> >>> I still have questions to pose yet it's late
> and I'm feeling tired so
> >>> I'll sign off for now.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Welcome aboard!
> >>
> >> --
> >> David Beierl - Providence RI USA --
> >> http://pws.prserv.net/synergy/Vanagon/
> >> '89 Po' White Star "Scamp"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>
>
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