Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 21:09:30 -0700
Reply-To: Jim Arnott <jrasite@EONI.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jim Arnott <jrasite@EONI.COM>
Subject: Re: vanagon difficulty
In-Reply-To: <21659742.6024.1251935369585.JavaMail.mcneely4@127.0.0.1>
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Please see below for my kinda jumbled thoughts on the matter:
On Sep 2, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Dave Mcneely wrote:
> David Beierl asked what is it about vanagons that makes me consider
> them
> difficult. Here:
>
> The are unreliable. Given their age, that is expected, but they NEVER
> were as reliable as Japanese vehicles, which in my experience seldom
> need repair.
And just how many 1980-1990 Toyotas or Hondas did you see this week.
I just returned from a 3500 mile journey in my 1984 Vanagon from NE
Oregon to Oceanside, CA and back.. I used 181 gallons of fuel and less
that 1 pint of oil on a motor that has 236,000 miles on it. I spent a
couple hours in LA traffic and an hour or so in San Jose/SF traffic. I
saw less than a dozen pre 1990 vehicles. (And yes, I WAS looking.) On
the journey, I saw about 150 Vanagons. By far, the most prevalent
pre-90 rig. (Ten in the first five hours down the Columbia Gorge.)
I've been driving Vanagons as daily drivers for .... gosh? It's been
twenty years.... They have come home on a hook exactly twice. In
twenty years and probably half a million miles. I preventive reseal my
waterboxers about every 120,000 miles or sooner if they need it.
I also own a mid-90s Nissan Pathfinder. Its 'regular' maintenance
includes a timing belt at 108,000 miles. Why 108,000 miles? Because
that what Nissan recommends. Based on my experience, you'd best not
try to make 109,000. It will cost you 12 bent valves and about $4,000
to put it right. You can imagine how I know.
My Vanagons have lasted years 'kinda' broke. You can drive them
thousands of miles with leaking heads. BTDT. When my Pathy snapped
its timing belt at 108,472 miles, it was done. The only way it was
moving another foot was on the starter motor. My Vanagons are MUCH
more 1.) reliable 2.) fault tolerant and 3.) user repairable.
(Example: The pathfinder randomly locks the doors. And randomly turns
the dome lights on. I've troubleshot this problem for three years
with the factory shop manual. No success. The dealer's solution is to
replace relays and control modules until the problem goes away. If it
does not go away, replace wiring harnesses. Cost guesstimate? We'll
start at $2500.)
The Nissan Pathfinder also has a mailing list. Traffic is about 3
posts a month. That's because (I Suspect) most of them are already in
the boneyard.
Ya pays your money and ya takes yer choice.... I choose a vehicle that
appreciates. The Pathfinder is on its way to being a thousand dollar
car. My Westy and Adventurewagen are on their way to being $10,000
cars. Every dime I put into them will be returned.
You said,
> People who can (or are willing) to work on them are rare, especially
> in
> the middle of the country. General shops can handle most vehicles.
> Take a vanagon to one, and if the shop accepts it, the repair will
> likely be done wrong.
No argument. I have NEVER found a mechanic that I trust more than I
trust myself. Then again, I've never been able to afford hiring
someone to learn on my dime. Specialization I will hire (Hi Daryl!).
Maintenance I'll do myself. On the road repair? If I hire it done,
they'll have to accept my supervision or I'll go visit U-Haul.
You said,
> Diagnosis seems more difficult than with other vehicles, even for
> knowledgeable techs.
I was a member of the international Automotive Technicians Network for
years and years. The issue with today's 'technicians' is that today's
automotive systems are modular. Failures are rarely mechanical, but
rather often electronic. I have watched technicians change electronic
module after module trying to repair a vacuum leak. Why? Because they
were trained to look for electronic failures, and not mechanical
faults. And every problem they've even encountered has been fixed by
replacing what the OBD II tells them to replace. Vanagons don't self
diagnose.
You wrote,
> Parts are hard to get and inordinately expensive.
You funny guy. I just bought a timing chain for a small block Chevy
('95 Z28). Timing chain, gears, gaskets, oil pump. are to guess? My
cost: $485. ALL auto parts are expensive. Thirty years ago I could
cheap overhaul a 1600 dual port with machine work for about a hundred
bucks. Those days are gone-gone.
And finally,
> A NON-difficult vehicle is one that seldom breaks, and when it does,
> can
> be easily repaired at a wide variety of shops at reasonable cost.
> That's not a vanagon.
How often does your '91 leave you stranded? Maybe it needs better
preventive maintenance. I wouldn't hesitate to jump into either my '84
or my '82 and head to your house. Ya know what? I'd get there.
Without breaking. And at $95/hr, there are no reasonable shops.
I really sounds like a new Ford is what you need. You might take a
look at the Transit Van. Drive it a hundred thou and trade it in on a
new one. Any Ford dealer can fix it. Ya might be able to fit the Westy
interior into it and the Zetec folks really like its motor. Then of
course, you'll be paying the finance company to drive it rather than
having the vehicle pay you.
BTW, I got curious. Your Westy cost about 51,000 DM in 1990. That's
about $37,000 at current exchange rates. If it's clean, you could
reasonably expect to get $15,000 it today's market. Try to find that
depreciation on any other rig. That new Ford Transit is about $25,000.
Next year it'll be worth half that. In twenty years? A thousand dollar
car.
Like I said, ya pays yer money....
Respectfully,
Jim
