Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 10:01:36 +0300
Reply-To: Janne Ruohomäki <janne.ruohomaki@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Janne Ruohomäki <janne.ruohomaki@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: vanagon difficulty
In-Reply-To: <4AA2536F.1010906@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Yes I am comparing diesel to gas to some extent. You have some point
in those lower RPMs but, in diesel engines pressures inside the engine
are way higher that the pressures in gasoline engine. So every
rotation means more stress inside diesel engine. I think you could get
very high mile count with gasoline engine if you somehow modified it
from diesel engine: less compression, more revolutions. Reason is the
quality of components. In diesel engine everything must be made
stronger, way stronger. Normal explosions that happen in diesel
engines chambers would probably break ordinary gasoline engine in one
single cycle.
My bottom line is that many engines could have been made to run to
almost infinity, but the designers simply chose to design something
different. Thats a marketing side decision. Same thing with car body
and for parts a good example might be Volvo Amazon front ball joints:
original ones and early replacement parts lasted some 15-20 years
easily. Newer ones only few years. They just didnt make enough money
on ball joints that almost dont need replacing. When was the last time
you saw a grease nipple in a passanger cars ball joint ? Right. They
are not meant to be serviced (eg. greased) anymore. They are meant to
be replaced. Some even have plastic cups inside around the ball! (Ok,
those "cars" might not be sold in US)
Despite my engine worries, I am myself actually putting together -90
syncro GL (diesel) for daily and vacation use. As a car most definetly
I would not trade it to any toyota, no matter how many miles the
toyota would go. The key to any longevity with cars is correct
maintenance. Theres no escaping it. And anyways Ill be having so much
tools with me in my T3 that theres no such thing that I wouldn be able
to fix. My previous cars didnt have room for tools.
On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Ken Wilford<kenwilfy@comcast.net> wrote:
> Janne,
> First of all you are comparing a diesel engine to a gas. They are different
> in a number of ways but one of the glaring ways is that diesels run at much
> lower rpms than gas engines. This has the effect of making them last longer
> for the simple reason that over the course of the same amount of miles
> diesel engines are making way less revolutions than a gas engine that would
> travel the same amount of miles. This equals less wear and tear on an
> engine. That is why it is extremely rare to hear of someone getting 500k
> miles out of a gas engine yet not that unheard of with a diesel engine.
> Secondly are we looking for pure mileage here? Doesn't it matter if you
> enjoy the trip or not? I think it does. If I had to drive a Toyota Corolla
> for 600k miles I would do it but I wouldn't be happy about it. They are
> good, reliable cars for the most part, yet very boring in every other way.
> I would consider logging that kind of mileage in a Corolla a type of
> purgatory at best, wishing for the day when I could escape and drive
> something fun.
>
> If you practice PM on a Vanagon it can be reasonably reliable. Yes that
> means opening the hood every few months and at least taking a look to see
> how things are going. I know this is inconvenient and not at all sticking
> to the latest and greatest "never look at or touch the engine ever"
> philosphy but it isn't that difficult either. Most folks don't do this,
> know things are failing yet keep driving anyway, then when something breaks
> on the side of the road, whine about Vanagons being unreliable. As Bob
> Donalds used to say, "The biggest problem with your van is that there is a
> loose nut behind the wheel." :-)
>
> PS My Dad actually owned that exact Datsun that you have been citing here
> until about two months ago. It was a Datsun Maxima diesel with the 2.8l
> engine. It was a great car and the engine will long outlast the rusting
> body. However you can't camp in it and I couldn't haul my family in it all
> at once. My Dad owns a diesel Ford F250 Crew Cab, a 2008 Jetta TDI, a 1998
> diesel Ford E350 van, and an 89 Vanagon Wolfsburg (Blue). Guess which one
> he drives the most? The Vanagon of course. :-)
>
> Ken Wilford
> John 3:16
> www.vanagain.com
>
>
> Janne Ruohomäki wrote:
>>
>> No this was not the kinda language. Sorry about that.
>>
>> Not at all all asian cars go that far. Very very few ones do this.
>> Just like american ones, most of the is crap. I dont see what kind of
>> documentation you are looking for but the car was my fathers. He has
>> always fixed all the cars himself and driven a lot in his
>> work. That car is now scrapped. No repair receipts or maintenance log
>> or anything were seen at any point. My father just knew what he was
>> doing. Oh.. and my father has been dead for 4 years.
>>
>> To little bit defend my self I would argue that I did not call
>> anybodys experience utter something. It is a fact that in general good
>> car engine should go over 1 000 000 miles quite easily. If it does not
>> it has some kind of design error, from engineering point of view. Not
>> necessarily economically faulty: it is probably a good thing to the
>> manufacturer if the engine does not go on forever.
>>
>> And the talk was about "audis & bmws of that time." Those cars were
>> roughly the same age at that time. Neiher was antique at that time.
>> But do the calculation yourself: 2.8 litres of engine displacement in
>> a datsun body that has more paint than metal. The engine was nissan
>> LD28 that has a reputation better than mercedes OM602 that is
>> generally taken as the best mass produced car engine in the world when
>> longevity is considered. (if someone knows of better one, I would
>> interrested to hear about it)
>>
>> I can guarantee that it aint rubber that I am smoking as I will soon
>> have 1.6 diesel in my T3 ;)
>>
>> Oh, this LD28 "wonder machine" could possibly be mounted to T3 with
>> luddite if theres enough space.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Karl<tdiguru@westyventures.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hear hear! Mr moderator! Is THIS the sort of language we need here?
>>>
>>> BTW, calling other's experience 'utter bee ess' is a little much, don't
>>> you think? That somehow all the GREAT Asian cars can achieve 1M miles?
>>> Sureeee....let's SEE your documentation. 1M miles no
>>> repairs...antiquated Datsun diesel "blowing away BMW's and Audis"....ok,
>>> I'll have some of what yer smokin'
>>>
>>> Karl
>>>
>>> Janne Ruohomäki wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now these here are starting to sound like respectable amount of
>>>> miles. My father had -82 Datsun Laurel 2.8 Diesel which went well over
>>>> 1 000 000 miles. No clutch, engine, drivetrain repairs or anything.
>>>> And for goddness sake this is a japanese car! The engine and
>>>> drivetrain were in excellent condition when my father sold the car to
>>>> some guy who had horses and needed cheap car to tow those horses in
>>>> "horsetrailer" (wtf that thing is called where horses travel in a box
>>>> behind a car). The only thing in that car that needed repairs was the
>>>> body of the car: japanese cars of that era have more paint than metal
>>>> everywhere in the car. There were 2 young guys driving this car as a
>>>> first car after we got our driving licences: me and my brother. And I
>>>> can tell you that we both hit the pedal to the metal _very_ often for
>>>> over 4 years in a row. Eg. absolute full throttle to 75mph at least
>>>> every second time when leaving traffic lights. That car was quite
>>>> lightweighted, except for engine. It was also rear wheel driven so it
>>>> was very much fun to drive with excessive sliding. Perfect car for
>>>> young wannabe-racer. It actually outperformed most BMWs and audis in
>>>> acceleration from 0 - 75 mpg that my friends (or their fathers ;) had
>>>> at that time.
>>>>
>>>> Ive followed this list and discussion about mileage and it actually
>>>> makes me laugh when people are somehow thinking that some 200 000
>>>> miles without opening an engine is a lot for a car. Thats utter
>>>> bullshit. These guys have absolutely no idea how a good engine should
>>>> perform. 200k is just a warmup lap for real Engine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
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