Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:33:00 -0230
Reply-To:     Joy Hecht <jhecht@ALUM.MIT.EDU>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Joy Hecht <jhecht@ALUM.MIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Vanagon emissions
In-Reply-To:  <758609.5553.1254348711007.JavaMail.mcneely4@127.0.0.1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

The concern about owning two vehicles is not that it leads anyone to drive
more.  It's about the resources consumed in producing and eventually
disposing of two vehicles rather than only one.  Michael's argument
(empirically verifiable, though he doesn't say whether this is basically his
guess or something he has data to demonstrate) is that the energy and
materials consumed in manufacturing the second vehicle and disposing it
exceed the savings in energy consumption due to driving some of one's miles
in, say, a Prius rather than a vanagon.

Of course comparing energy consumption (and consequent pollution) with
materials that go into the vehicle doesn't work, it's like comparing apples
& oranges.  But one can do the analysis based only on energy use.  I'd guess
that in energy terms alone, the energy savings from driving (say) half one's
lifetime miles in a Prius rather than all in a vanagon (the Prius gets
roughly 30 mpg better than a vanagon) are greater than the energy consumed
in manufacturing and disposing of the Prius.

Whether that is actually true, of course, depends on what your second
vehicle is, how much you drive in each, and so on.  You could do the same
with other emissions (ones that are not a linear function of gasoline use),
and I guess materials consumed.  Disposing of the Prius batteries seems to
be problematic and a somewhat unresolved issue - obviously there's nothing
comparable if you only drive the vanagon.

If your second vehicle is a bicycle, you'll definitely be doing the world a
favor!



Joy

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Dave Mcneely <mcneely4@cox.net> wrote:

> I think some of your claims may not stand up well under careful
> analysis.  I'll make just one point here:  the total miles driven is not
> the consequence of owning two vehicles, but the consequence of trips
> taken.  Any taken by the more efficient vehicle are not taken by the
> less efficient one (the vanagon).  I do have a vanagon (a camper).  If I
> did not have it, I would pollute less.  But if I had only it, I would
> pollute more.  My alternative to having it would not involve obtaining
> another equally polluting vehicle.  I would just have one less vehicle.
> I agree that manufacturing and maintenance include environmental costs.
> So does disposal to some degree, though materials can be reclaimed (for
> automobiles a good bit is), thus saving mining costs.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Michael Snow wrote:
>
>  What is wrong with driving a Vanagon or light truck as your only
>> vehicle?
>>
>> I would argue that:
>>
>> A.  Life-cycle emissions include the total of the emissions created
>> from mining, manufacturing, use, maintenance and disposal of the
>> vehicle.
>>
>> B.  Regardless of your choice of second vehicle, there is no vehicle
>> in existence (and never will be) that emits so few pollutants that the
>> combined life-cycle emissions of the two vehicles are less than those
>> of a single pickup or Vanagon.
>>
>> C.  Completely disregarding all consideration for fuel economy and
>> emissions, there is no second vehicle in existence (and never will be)
>> that costs so little to purchase, insure, operate and maintain, that
>> will enable a lower combined operation cost than is incurred by the
>> poor fuel economy of a single pickup or Vanagon.
>>
>> Drive what meets your needs, but understand that two vehicles are
>> never less expensive than one, and the life-cycle emissions of two
>> cars are never less than those of a single vehicle.  I think the Prius
>> is a marvel of engineering.  However, driving a Prius or any other
>> super-efficient car, as a second car, costs you more, and pollutes the
>> planet more than driving only a Vanagon.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Snow
>> 1982 Westfalia 1.9TD
>> http://slowmachine82.blogspot.com/
>>
>