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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 2009 23:39:21 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Brake light circuit current with trailer,
              WAS: Re: No High Beams
Comments: To: Rocket J Squirrel <camping.elliott@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=response

all that may be true. but the fact remains, .for some odd reason, yet undiscovered,.... an 8 am fuse blows, and a 16 doesn't.

if "It pulls power from the battery directly to light the trailer's bulbs without > additional loading on the brake light circuit."

if that statement was true ............an 8 am fuse would do the job. Something is not right somewhere, I suspect.

I like basic simple stuff I understand, or have built myself. I would feel I was loosing control and understanding of how it works...... were I too add a solid state powered converter.

I find it more useful to talk about #'s of filaments. in your trailer you have two filaments on each side, whether it's one bulb with two filaments in it, a tail light size one, and a brake light/turn signal one, or two single filament bulbs, one tail light size, and the other brake light/turn signal size, or brightness. No abuguity when talking about it that way.

And do people realize that on a car with a two filament system, brake light voltage goes through the turn signal switch in the neautral position....... but when it's put to a turn position............say to the right, the right 'brake light' turns into the right turn signal, leaving only one brake light on the other side ?

sure seems goofy to me. a 3 filament system is safer, and doesn't require electronic trickery, etc.

I'd be afraid to say I'd put a 16 amp in an 8 amp circuit - people would be screaming that I was going to burn up my van. lol.

As long as they work, and you're happy ....................and as long as there are no electrons going where they shouldn't in a big rush of voltagge...... as in an uncontrolled way ............then things are fine.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rocket J Squirrel" <camping.elliott@gmail.com> To: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> Cc: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: Brake light circuit current with trailer, WAS: Re: No High Beams

> It's always been working. I'm sorry I'm so wordy, the point I try to make > often gets lost in the exposition. > > The brake lights on the Vanagon work fine. They draw 4 amps when the brake > pedal is depressed. > > When the trailer was connected, the 8A brake light fuse (fuse 8, 1984) > popped when I depressed the brake pedal. This happened in August 2008 when > I was ready to leave to Bend, and it happened again a few weeks ago the > first time I hooked up the trailer after the move up here. In both cases I > removed the blown 8A fuse and installed a 16A fuse and all the light > worked fine. > > My assumption was that the trailer lights -- tail lights, there are only > two bulbs there -- plus the van's brake lights were too much for a 8A fuse > to handle. > > But I'd forgotten that I had installed a powered 3 to 2 converter in the > engine compartment when I wired up the trailer pigtail. It works: when I > measure the current going through fuse 8 with no trailer connected, I > measure 4 amps. With the trailer connected, there is still only 4 amps. It > pulls power from the battery directly to light the trailer's bulbs without > additional loading on the brake light circuit. > > The lamps all work as they should. > > The measurements do not show any reason why an 8A fuse would pop but a 16A > fuse would hold when the trailer is connected, because as I noted, adding > the trailer does not add additional loading to the brake light circuit. 4 > amps, either way. > > -- > Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott > 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana") > 74 Westrailia: (Ladybug Trailer company, San Juan Capistrano, Calif.) > Bend, OR > KG6RCR > > > > On 10/10/2009 10:32 PM Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote: > >> hi, >> maybe in the last line you mean the brake lights, and not the tail >> lights, come on when the brake pedal is pressed. >> >> so it's working then ? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rocket J Squirrel" >> <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM> >> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> >> Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: Brake light circuit current with trailer, WAS: Re: No High >> Beams >> >> >>> You're right -- it's unclear whether the problem is fixed, or what the >>> problem was that caused the fuses to pop. >>> >>> There are two flavors of 3 to 2 tail light converters: powered and >>> unpowered. Unpowered do the conversion and power the lamps from the same >>> circuits that drive the van's tail lights. Powered converters do the >>> conversion but have a +12 wire to draw trailer lamp lighting current >>> from >>> the battery so the vehicle's lamp circuits don't see the load of the >>> extra >>> bulbs. >>> >>> I can tell the converter is working fine because the current through the >>> fuse is 4A when there is no trailer connected, and 4A when the trailer >>> is >>> connected. The tail lights on the trailer do come on when the brake >>> pedal >>> is depressed.* >>> >>> >>> >>> ================== >>> * Or even mildly sad. >>> -- >>> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott >>> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana") >>> 74 Westrailia: (Ladybug Trailer company, San Juan Capistrano, Calif.) >>> Bend, OR >>> KG6RCR >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/10/2009 6:17 PM Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote: >>> >>>> so your problem is still not fixed ? >>>> to me, that's not really quite clear. >>>> >>>> and .........re : >>>> "The converter is designed to make >>>> sure that no additional loading is presented to the circuit. " >>>> >>>> really ? >>>> I never use them, but my understanding is that they are for converting >>>> from a '3 filament system ' ( vanagon - a separate filament for tail, >>>> turn, and brake ) >>>> to a '2 filament system' ( where there is tail, and brake, but brake >>>> on >>>> one side turns into turn signal when the turn signal is engaged - a >>>> very >>>> dumb system I think, and still, oddly, used in brand new American cars >>>> .........without even amber turn signal lenses even ) ... >>>> but .... >>>> just divies up from 3 to 2, or .........where you are going the other >>>> way ..........from 2 to 3 if there is such a converter. >>>> >>>> I would start over. >>>> it could be that you have a bad converting gizmo. >>>> >>>> here is what I Actually recommend, which I have done to my utility >>>> trailer and it works dead frickin' perfect. >>>> Get motorcycle amber turn signals. >>>> They are often mounted on a rubber stalk too, so bumping them doesn't >>>> brake them off. >>>> I have mine under the rear of my utility trailer . >>>> this way, I have a nice 3 filament system with amber turn signals on >>>> my >>>> vanagon, >>>> and same on my trailer. >>>> And the turn signal and 4 way flasher can handle the load of 3 or even >>>> 6 >>>> turn signal bulbs all flashing at once. >>>> >>>> I think you have a bad converter unit perhaps, or are trying to use it >>>> incorrectly or something along those lines. >>>> I don't trust sealed electronic gizmo's like that very much anyway. If >>>> they work fine ...... >>>> but if any doubt, get rid of that thing and wire it to truly match your >>>> Vanagon's system. >>>> >>>> then there won't be any balonie about blowing fuses etc. >>>> Find a motorcylce junk yard - used mc turn signal assemblies are cheap >>>> I >>>> would imagine. >>>> Scott >>>> www.turbovans.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rocket J Squirrel" >>>> <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM> >>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 5:45 PM >>>> Subject: Brake light circuit current with trailer, WAS: Re: No High >>>> Beams >>>> >>>> >>>>> A continuation of a side thread. >>>>> >>>>> On 9/29/09 I opened my big fat yap to comment on a thread in which a >>>>> list >>>>> member said that he was blowing high beam fuses after going to higher >>>>> wattage lamps (see "No High Beams"). >>>>> >>>>> I helpfully added that on my van, fuse #8 (fusebox, 1984) popped >>>>> moments >>>>> after applying the brakes when my little trailer was hooked up. >>>>> Changing >>>>> the 8A fuse to a 16A fuse* fixed the problem. >>>>> >>>>> I thought that contributing this anecdote to the thread would help >>>>> illustrate how adding more or bigger bulbs to a lighting circuit might >>>>> exceed the current rating of the fuse. >>>>> >>>>> Ohm's Law says one 21W bulb will draw 1.75A at 12V, and around 1.95A >>>>> at >>>>> 13.4V (alternator booted). With four 21W bulbs that's nearly 8A, which >>>>> would pretty quickly pop the fuse, although it should have taken a few >>>>> seconds, and not the brief moment that I witnessed. My guess was that >>>>> the >>>>> bulbs' inrush current** was responsible for the fast blow. >>>>> >>>>> In the thread, a couple list members took me to task for not taking >>>>> current measurements, I was speaking through my backside. So I >>>>> measured >>>>> the currents:*** >>>>> >>>>> Results: >>>>> >>>>> With stock-type brake lights, no trailer: 3.9 amps @ 13.4V (1.95A/bulb >>>>> which is in agreement with the calculated 2A/bulb @ 13.5V.) >>>>> >>>>> With trailer: Exactly the same. I had forgotten that I had wired in a >>>>> "powered" 3-to-2 tail light converter**** >>>>> >>>>> So. Why the heck did the 8A fuse pop the first time I pressed on the >>>>> brake >>>>> pedal once the trailer was connected. The converter is designed to >>>>> make >>>>> sure that no additional loading is presented to the circuit. And my >>>>> measurements confirm it. I think it's fair to say that if there was a >>>>> momentary short or glitch in the trailer pigtail or wiring, the >>>>> converter >>>>> would have had to deal with it, not the dash fuse. >>>>> >>>>> I should point out that this scenario played out exactly the same way >>>>> back >>>>> in August 2008 when I first hooked up the trailer for my Escape From >>>>> SoCal. >>>>> >>>>> Science is baffled. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ========== >>>>> * These GBC "ceramic torpedo" fuses only come in three flavors: 8A, >>>>> 16A, 25A >>>>> >>>>> ** Inrush current, I felt, was the reason why the fuse was popping so >>>>> quickly since light bulbs will draw 5 to 10 times as much current >>>>> when >>>>> power is first applied than when they are hot. >>>>> >>>>> *** My reader will recall that I can't be trusted with an ammeter: >>>>> none of >>>>> my ammeters have intact fuses in them. I've blown them all. To make >>>>> these >>>>> measurements I made a 0.01 ohm (+/-) "resistor" using 19'' of 40-mil >>>>> diameter solid-core copper wire soldered across a blown fuse. By >>>>> measuring >>>>> the voltage drop across this current-sampling resistance and applying >>>>> I = >>>>> E/R I had my ammeter. Easy as cake. >>>>> >>>>> **** The trailer has two bulbs, one on right, one on left, Vanagon >>>>> uses >>>>> four bulbs: right turn, left turn, and two brake lights wired >>>>> together, >>>>> three circuits total. A converter is needed to drive the two-circuit >>>>> trailer from the three circuit van. A powered converter connects to >>>>> the >>>>> battery to avoid additional loading on the original lighting circuits. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott >>>>> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana") >>>>> 74 Westrailia: (Ladybug Trailer company, San Juan Capistrano, Calif.) >>>>> Bend, OR >>>>> KG6RCR >>>> >>>> >>


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