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Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 2010 09:00:11 -0800
Reply-To:     Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Conversion? JETTA ENGINE??
Comments: To: frankgrun@aol.com
In-Reply-To:  <8CC59A4CA331EF7-5360-37C9F@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Happy New Year! Nice to see you here again! =)

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful post Frank.

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 1:26 AM, Frank Grunthaner <frankgrun@aol.com> wrote:

> I've recently become aware of this thread and though I add a few comments > to Neil's quoted below. > > First, I would like to emphasize for the newbies who have not been > subjected to my lengthy posts on several of these subjects in the past that > there is absolutely no mounting angle dependence on the vibration levels > experienced in I4 Vanagon conversions. That is the vibronic polar moment of > the mount angle has no impact on the vibration spectrum generated by the > motor or on its transmission or resonances coupled to the body. 0˚, 10˚, > 15˚, 22˚, 40˚ or 55˚ the vibrations generated by the motor will be exactly > the same. The vibrations and resonances you experience in the installation > are a function of the motor and transmission mounts, as well as the exhaust > system mounting and in some cases the intake ducting. I've looked at all of > these contributors and mapped them carefully for the VW and Audi 1.8 and > 2.0L engines. Hydraulic motor mounts, appropriately sized will eliminate > vibration over all rpm ranges if the exhaust system is properly isolated. > The hanging mass of the exhaust is particularly prone to mid rpm resonances. > With moderate attention to detail, the use of exhaust components from the > Golf/Jetta or Audi group eliminates these issues. As you may note in the > citations Niel made, I chose the SAAB hydraulic mounts because the internal > valving was originally chosen for an engine with very similar vibronic > spectra to that of the VAG I4 engines. Other systems including the hydraulic > Audi 5000 series mounts and the Mercedes units will probably work as well. > The '82 carrier bars work just fine, and I never tested the '83 units so > YMMV! > > Second, on the issue of conversion engines, there have always been two > extremes to my way of thinking. High dollar and low dollar solutions. > Changing out the engine in a vehicle and then demanding high reliability > from that converted vehicle is a risky business at best. After all, the > Vanagon or Westfalia are not readily adapted to the raceway or the showcar > circuit. Typically, these are working vehicles and often they carry precious > cargo such as family to areas in which specialized and competent service is > not readily available. Of these extremes, the high dollar solution is one > that is supported by a kit manufacturer. Here you will invest from $7,500 to > $10,000 between the kit cost, the motor purchase and your mechanic's > installation fee. This describes the Small Car, Bostig and TIICO groups as > well as several independents. Each of these engine solutions have had a > number of component difficulties. Add to this mix the experienced DIY and > inexperienced DIY owners and one can see a number of significant problems. > In general, the the number of custom (low volume) solution components is > small. There are no cost resources to support serious component quality > control and statistically there must be a failure rate inversely > proportional to the number of replicates made. It is difficult to see how > the kit manufacturer can afford to support the product to the level needed > by the small group of purchasers. Therefore there must be a significant > number of disappointed and frustrated users. The various forums are full of > instance and discussion relating this point. If the kit vendor is just a > subcontractor with inadequate primary engineering resources, the TIICO > situation develops. The Subaru, Zetec and VAG engines solutions offered for > conversion are all well engineered systems as installed in the original > vehicle. I believe that in the hands of a careful and competent DIY owner, > any of these units can be made to work successfully. The situation is more > precarious in the case of the local non-specialist mechanic doing a contract > install. It's hard to see where an adequate fee can be charged to cover time > and inevitable problem resolution. > > In the low dollar case, I believe there are several potential solutions, > but none cheaper and more robust than the VAG I4 solution based on Diesel > Vanagon components. First, it must be acknowledged that VW built > approximately 850,000 T3 (includes T25 and Vanagon) vehicles equipped with > I4 diesel engines from 1981 through 1990. Significant factory engineering > and production resources were devoted to design, development and > implementation of the package. More than 25 million I4 engines in the > various fuel injected 1.8 and 2.0L families through the ABA have been > delivered by VW in the similar timeframe. One must conclude that there is a > major resource of factory engineered 55˚ mount I4 components available than > can bolt up a series of gasoline and diesel VAG blocks. In general, those > engines, their electrical and control systems are readily supported by VW > and independent mechanics worldwide. To be sure, bolting up a > Jetta/Golf/Fox/Audi 80 engine to the Vanagon transaxle will require some > ingenuity. Exhaust systems have to be fabricated, air cleaner systems > modded, oil pickups modded or swapped and some harness wiring changes need > to be made. However those changes pale to insignificance compared to the > changes needed to accommodate the Subaru or Zetec engines if you are on a > modest cost kick (need to value your time at the $1.00 per hour rate here). > > As many of you know, I have long concluded that the Digifant fuel injection > system is quite robust and the 8V RV engine with dual port GLi exhaust is an > excellent match to the DZ transmission. The engine will rev all day at 6500 > rpm driving the Vanagon with air and power steering at a over-the-land > velocity that should be reserved for the young and foolish. The engine will > return reasonable fuel economy in the 65-75 mph range with plenty of reserve > to push the brick up serious inclines or to provide the passing moxie to > flash past the laboring trucker. With the diesel gearing, the engine will be > moderately stressed in around town and freeway acceleration duties. Of > course one can buy into the standard list wisdom of regearing to drop > cruising revs. This will shorten the life of the engine, gain virtually no > economy advantage and seriously grannize the Vanagon performance and > usability. Low mileage RV engines complete with ECU can be had for $300. Add > the cost of the diesel parts if you aren't beginning with a DV, throw in a > tune-up, hydraulic engine mounts, another $100 for mount and exhaust > fabrication, replace the clutch and bolt-on a straight-through muffler and > you can be on the road for less than a grand. The engine will spin to > 200,000 miles. If the sound of a good engine enjoying its work doesn't > appeal, add some sound proofing or better tires and speed-up. The wind noise > inherent in the van will drown out the engine noise. The above comments > about transmission choice really only apply to 4 and 5 spd manuals and any > manual can be used. > > If you want a better and torquier engine, go to the 2.0L 3A engine from the > Audi 80. The engine is more robust, has oil squirters and better intake > manifold engineering. Use the Audi CIS-E or convert to the VW digifant > system. I have shared the engineering drawings for a fuel rail and modified > injector seals. The engine height is the same as the RV and DV engines and > the block is slightly thicker. > > If you are still greedy for performance, add the supercharger kit as Niel > noted. Go low pressure or follow my Audi 3A turbocharged engine route with > the SAAB control system. All on Alistair's site. Turbocharging to 5 psi > will light up these engines and move more fuel to help you fantasize that > you are running a Subaru H6. If you pressurize, always add an intercooler. > They are cheap on eBay and seriously reduce the heat load on the engine. > > Of course, with more cash, the informed DIYer can readily tackle the Subaru > conversions. Not familiar with their longevity. I have never been impressed > with the engines in their native habitat and my son has decomposed several > of the 2.5's and 2.5 turbos. VW dealer service will be less enthusiastic and > I have seen several independents in the LA area turn away Subaru conversions > belonging to friends. But of course you will want to do this for the > adventure. > > The best conversions, in my view, involve the TDi engine. The 1Z/AHU engine > is a tough system and can return excellent results. Its well suited to the > Vanagon bulk, but poorly matched to the available transmissions. It is my > opinion that the manual transmissions are almost too weak for the robust > TDi. This is both in terms of rev matching to the engine RPM character but > mostly in terms of its inability to handle serious torque. The Vanagon > manual, from the factory is probably good for 150 foot pounds of torque > continuous and 200 peak pulse. I'm using a DK with larger tires and the rev > range is acceptable. The 1Z with a PD150 intake, RocketChip tuning, 520 > injectors and a clocked VNT turbo in a nice package and I'm completing a > number of mods and updates including a water to air intercooler and water > injection system for EGT control. Unfortunately, the TDi engine is pricey > and the additional component engineering requirements add more cost. > > Sorry for the length, got carried away again. Happy new year and more > satisfying wrenching, > > Frank Grunthaner > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: neil n <musomuso@GMAIL.COM> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 7:16 pm > Subject: Re: Conversion? JETTA ENGINE?? > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Mark Dearing <VWBrain@aol.com> wrote: > > hey Guys I just did this conversion using a 92 jetta motor into my 1985 > > westy, I used the vannie diesel bellhousing, mounts, oil pan , oil > pick up > > , flywheel etc. I kept the vannie control system complete works > great, > > runs good , fair gas mileage. fits under the engine cover looks > factory. > > later mark dearing salem import service salem va > > > > > This speaks highly of choosing the DIY path IMO. > > As for Tiico, I have read that the actual mount angle has little if > anything to do with engine vibrations transferring to the body. > Basically you need hydro mounts, stable mount brackets and stable > carriers. I bet there's lot's re: Tiico vibrations on the Tiico Yahoo > user group. > > Frank Grunthaner posts have great info. And Alistair Bell has lots of > great info/pics in his website. (including some from Frank himself). > > i.e. this: > > http://www.members.shaw.ca/albell/mounts_TiiCO.html > > or this from Frank: > > http://www.members.shaw.ca/albell/mounts_FG.html > > Scanning some of that now reconfirms what little I know about > isolating engine vibrations. > > Of note, do the later model NA Vanagons NOT have the forward mount > points for the DV carriers? If they don't, I would assume that if the > DV carrier is mounted at those points, and the metal is too thin, the > vibrations might be amplified and/or that area might get weakened. > > I have a 2.0L ABA stock mounted at 15 degrees (much more upright). > There are no vibrations at idle, and it's fairly quiet while cruising > at speed. The only vibrations I *hear* (I don't really feel much.... > maybe I'm just used to it) are under acceleration at mid RPM's. (sorry > no tach.... yet!) But. NOwhere near the vibrations I've read of with > some Tiicos. Like some have written that there side mirrors would > shake! > > I'm using Fox motor mounts and brackets one of which has been modified > to clear the oil filter/cooler/lower rad hose. In spite of that, this > bracket seems to be faring well. (no cracks) I have mounted the home > made carrier to the frame with 3 fasteners per end. This is the same > thick part of the frame that the original engine carrier was mounted > to. > > Pic of unfinished work, but shows where carrier mounts > > > http://lh3.ggpht.com/_01e3MpPuKwI/Sz1mXQVke6I/AAAAAAAACOI/Fw5TMbj7_pQ/s640/mount2.jpg > > > > Neil. > > > > -- > Neil Nicholson '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco" > > http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/ > > > http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines > > >

-- Jake

1984 Vanagon GL 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"

Crescent Beach, BC

www.thebassspa.com www.crescentbeachguitar.com http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27


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