Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 12:17:52 -0800
Reply-To: neil n <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: neil n <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Conversion? JETTA ENGINE??
In-Reply-To: <8CC59A4CA331EF7-5360-37C9F@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com>
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On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 1:26 AM, <frankgrun@aol.com> wrote:
> I've recently become aware of this thread and though I add a few comments to
> Neil's quoted below.
>
> First, I would like to emphasize for the newbies who have not been subjected
> to my lengthy posts on several of these subjects in the past that there is
> absolutely no mounting angle dependence on the vibration levels experienced
> in I4 Vanagon conversions. That is the vibronic polar moment of the mount
> angle has no impact on the vibration spectrum generated by the motor or on
> its transmission or resonances coupled to the body. 0˚, 10˚, 15˚, 22˚, 40˚
> or 55˚ the vibrations generated by the motor will be exactly the same. The
> vibrations and resonances you experience in the installation are a function
> of the motor and transmission mounts, as well as the exhaust system mounting
> and in some cases the intake ducting. I've looked at all of these
> contributors and mapped them carefully for the VW and Audi 1.8 and 2.0L
> engines. Hydraulic motor mounts, appropriately sized will eliminate
> vibration over all rpm ranges if the exhaust system is properly isolated.
> The hanging mass of the exhaust is particularly prone to mid rpm resonances.
> With moderate attention to detail, the use of exhaust components from the
> Golf/Jetta or Audi group eliminates these issues. As you may note in the
> citations Niel made, I chose the SAAB hydraulic mounts because the internal
> valving was originally chosen for an engine with very similar vibronic
> spectra to that of the VAG I4 engines. Other systems including the hydraulic
> Audi 5000 series mounts and the Mercedes units will probably work as well.
> The '82 carrier bars work just fine, and I never tested the '83 units so
> YMMV!
>
> Second, on the issue of conversion engines, there have always been two
> extremes to my way of thinking. High dollar and low dollar solutions.
> Changing out the engine in a vehicle and then demanding high reliability
> from that converted vehicle is a risky business at best. After all, the
> Vanagon or Westfalia are not readily adapted to the raceway or the showcar
> circuit. Typically, these are working vehicles and often they carry precious
> cargo such as family to areas in which specialized and competent service is
> not readily available. Of these extremes, the high dollar solution is one
> that is supported by a kit manufacturer. Here you will invest from $7,500 to
> $10,000 between the kit cost, the motor purchase and your mechanic's
> installation fee. This describes the Small Car, Bostig and TIICO groups as
> well as several independents. Each of these engine solutions have had a
> number of component difficulties. Add to this mix the experienced DIY and
> inexperienced DIY owners and one can see a number of significant problems.
> In general, the the number of custom (low volume) solution components is
> small. There are no cost resources to support serious component quality
> control and statistically there must be a failure rate inversely
> proportional to the number of replicates made. It is difficult to see how
> the kit manufacturer can afford to support the product to the level needed
> by the small group of purchasers. Therefore there must be a significant
> number of disappointed and frustrated users. The various forums are full of
> instance and discussion relating this point. If the kit vendor is just a
> subcontractor with inadequate primary engineering resources, the TIICO
> situation develops. The Subaru, Zetec and VAG engines solutions offered for
> conversion are all well engineered systems as installed in the original
> vehicle. I believe that in the hands of a careful and competent DIY owner,
> any of these units can be made to work successfully. The situation is more
> precarious in the case of the local non-specialist mechanic doing a contract
> install. It's hard to see where an adequate fee can be charged to cover time
> and inevitable problem resolution.
>
> In the low dollar case, I believe there are several potential solutions, but
> none cheaper and more robust than the VAG I4 solution based on Diesel
> Vanagon components. First, it must be acknowledged that VW built
> approximately 850,000 T3 (includes T25 and Vanagon) vehicles equipped with
> I4 diesel engines from 1981 through 1990. Significant factory engineering
> and production resources were devoted to design, development and
> implementation of the package. More than 25 million I4 engines in the
> various fuel injected 1.8 and 2.0L families through the ABA have been
> delivered by VW in the similar timeframe. One must conclude that there is a
> major resource of factory engineered 55˚ mount I4 components available than
> can bolt up a series of gasoline and diesel VAG blocks. In general, those
> engines, their electrical and control systems are readily supported by VW
> and independent mechanics worldwide. To be sure, bolting up a
> Jetta/Golf/Fox/Audi 80 engine to the Vanagon transaxle will require some
> ingenuity. Exhaust systems have to be fabricated, air cleaner systems
> modded, oil pickups modded or swapped and some harness wiring changes need
> to be made. However those changes pale to insignificance compared to the
> changes needed to accommodate the Subaru or Zetec engines if you are on a
> modest cost kick (need to value your time at the $1.00 per hour rate here).
>
> As many of you know, I have long concluded that the Digifant fuel injection
> system is quite robust and the 8V RV engine with dual port GLi exhaust is an
> excellent match to the DZ transmission. The engine will rev all day at 6500
> rpm driving the Vanagon with air and power steering at a over-the-land
> velocity that should be reserved for the young and foolish. The engine will
> return reasonable fuel economy in the 65-75 mph range with plenty of reserve
> to push the brick up serious inclines or to provide the passing moxie to
> flash past the laboring trucker. With the diesel gearing, the engine will be
> moderately stressed in around town and freeway acceleration duties. Of
> course one can buy into the standard list wisdom of regearing to drop
> cruising revs. This will shorten the life of the engine, gain virtually no
> economy advantage and seriously grannize the Vanagon performance and
> usability. Low mileage RV engines complete with ECU can be had for $300. Add
> the cost of the diesel parts if you aren't beginning with a DV, throw in a
> tune-up, hydraulic engine mounts, another $100 for mount and exhaust
> fabrication, replace the clutch and bolt-on a straight-through muffler and
> you can be on the road for less than a grand. The engine will spin to
> 200,000 miles. If the sound of a good engine enjoying its work doesn't
> appeal, add some sound proofing or better tires and speed-up. The wind noise
> inherent in the van will drown out the engine noise. The above comments
> about transmission choice really only apply to 4 and 5 spd manuals and any
> manual can be used.
>
> If you want a better and torquier engine, go to the 2.0L 3A engine from the
> Audi 80. The engine is more robust, has oil squirters and better intake
> manifold engineering. Use the Audi CIS-E or convert to the VW digifant
> system. I have shared the engineering drawings for a fuel rail and modified
> injector seals. The engine height is the same as the RV and DV engines and
> the block is slightly thicker.
>
> If you are still greedy for performance, add the supercharger kit as Niel
> noted. Go low pressure or follow my Audi 3A turbocharged engine route with
> the SAAB control system. All on Alistair's site. Turbocharging to 5 psi
> will light up these engines and move more fuel to help you fantasize that
> you are running a Subaru H6. If you pressurize, always add an intercooler.
> They are cheap on eBay and seriously reduce the heat load on the engine.
>
> Of course, with more cash, the informed DIYer can readily tackle the Subaru
> conversions. Not familiar with their longevity. I have never been impressed
> with the engines in their native habitat and my son has decomposed several
> of the 2.5's and 2.5 turbos. VW dealer service will be less enthusiastic and
> I have seen several independents in the LA area turn away Subaru conversions
> belonging to friends. But of course you will want to do this for the
> adventure.
>
> The best conversions, in my view, involve the TDi engine. The 1Z/AHU engine
> is a tough system and can return excellent results. Its well suited to the
> Vanagon bulk, but poorly matched to the available transmissions. It is my
> opinion that the manual transmissions are almost too weak for the robust
> TDi. This is both in terms of rev matching to the engine RPM character but
> mostly in terms of its inability to handle serious torque. The Vanagon
> manual, from the factory is probably good for 150 foot pounds of torque
> continuous and 200 peak pulse. I'm using a DK with larger tires and the rev
> range is acceptable. The 1Z with a PD150 intake, RocketChip tuning, 520
> injectors and a clocked VNT turbo in a nice package and I'm completing a
> number of mods and updates including a water to air intercooler and water
> injection system for EGT control. Unfortunately, the TDi engine is pricey
> and the additional component engineering requirements add more cost.
>
> Sorry for the length, got carried away again. Happy new year and more
> satisfying wrenching,
>
> Frank Grunthaner
>
>
>
Great stuff! Super useful information AND humour? (rubs hands like
Mr. Burns on The Simpsons):
"Excellent".
In doing a 15* "home brew" swap, I now appreciate how much R&D a given
manufacturer *should* do, in designing engine swap parts or kits. Even
the "simplest" piece requires thought. Heck. Even just the positioning
of a stock unaltered part is important. To the inexperienced DIY'er
thinking of saving money tackling a "home brew" swap: it can be, uh,
challenging.
Email lists such as this are invaluable. I never would have gotten it
done w/o help from this and other lists.
No regrets though I learned a LOT. It runs fine.
Some tips for the "home brew" DIY'ers:
Give yourself lots of time, then double it.
Some things require original thinking and "new" DIY parts. But. Don't
try to re-invent the wheel in terms of parts used or design of parts.
Stick with tried and true.
When choosing your swap, don't focus too much on saving money. (read
Franks comment on $1/hour..... I think I came in at .25/hour).
Think things through. Understand what the end result should be.
Regarding engine management systems, zero regrets on using the stock
OBD1 Motronic. In terms of complexity, from the POV of someone who
knew nothing of engine management systems (beyond a carb and old
school condenser and points), in HINDSIGHT, this system is not super
complex. On my swap, the amount of wires to be cut into, relays
required, (3) etc., were not huge tasks and though I have yet to hook
up a tach, it seems I didn't even need to conjure up a VSS or install
a dummy. No rev limiting, idle or stalling issues. So really, not a
lot required to adapt this to my '81 Vanagon.
Of course now that I've done it, I'm happy to relay what I've learned
to the next sucker, er enthusiast, that wishes to take on this type of
swap. I mean I'd hate to see someone else lose perfectly good scalp
hair (subsequently replaced by gray strands and ear weeds) trying to
determine why there is no CEL light wire in the harness, why the FP
*appears* to have 2 grounds, or why in the heck there are 2 connectors
on the gall dang TPS!
"What? Isn't one of those TPS sockets for the AC? No? Really? There's
no vari speed on the blower motor??"
<grin>
Neil.
--
Neil Nicholson '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco"
http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
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