Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 23:43:11 -0500
Reply-To: frankgrun@AOL.COM
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Frank Grunthaner <frankgrun@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Now Vanagon TDi Transmission Survival Strategy
In-Reply-To: <008801ca8e86$811e2a00$835a7e00$@com>
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Daryl,
So good to know that the baiting-the-bear approach works! Your comments are very helpful, but I want to press a little further.
As I try to visualize the SA plates I think of a sort of crank scraper to a gear cluster taking the thick oil sheet traveling around the rotating cluster and redirecting it towards the 3/4 gear group. Is this anywhere near the mark?
What I really had in mind was fabricating an injection rail with oil ports sending cooled oil to various areas of the gear cluster. I had hoped that a trans guru (just drawing his thoughts to the matter during a coffee break) could advise a possible geometry entering the oil fill port. I had in mind a heavy wall (stiff) injector that might be aligned parallel to the cluster and a dog-leg on the end so it could be rotated after insertion to a fixed point against the top of the case, then tightened in place. I had hoped such a thing could be made and safely inserted without having to open the case and thereby have to breakout labor-intensive rework (alignment). Is this a possibility? Or is the interior of the case just 10# of metal stuffed in a 5# box?
Thanks for the Swepco recommendation,
Your turn,
Frank Grunthaner
-----Original Message-----
From: Daryl Christensen <daryl@aatransaxle.com>
To: frankgrun@AOL.COM; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Sent: Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:12 pm
Subject: RE: Now Vanagon TDi Transmission Survival Strategy
Well done Frank...Ya got my attention.
The word of the day is Oiling Plates...They go both in the main case beside the
ring gear and in the gear housing by 3rd/4th to redirect the splash oiling
towards the pinion and M/S bearings to force feed any splash oil to where it
will do some good. Designed, I assume, by the S.A. guys to gain an extra 80 Nm (
? 75HP? ) of "safe" additional power according to the Euro guys I have talked
to.
I agree that cooling is key and have no problem with an external cooler, but for
most, its out of reach due to the fabrication necessary.
Using the proper tranny oil can make ALL the difference and is an easy "fix"..
I suggest Swepco 201 or 203 racing oil for a TDi or a 3.3 SVX conversion. I have
seen several rigs that were driven hard and put away wet that ruined the R&P's
after less than 2 yrs. They were using a lighter gear oil (maybe even Redline)
that didn't hold up to the stress and torque of the 200 + HP with these heavy
rigs we drive.
For those with stockish vans or very cold temps, Redline works just fine. Still
change it every couple years though to be on the safe side..( or so as not to
have to deal with the likes of me...)
During a rebuild, we constantly see looseness of components as the cases get
tired. Bad bearings peen the magnesium alloy metal and cause the bores to
expand. Rebushing cases and other parts also tightens up the tolerances and slop
that wears gears and shafts. The closer to factory specs, the longer it will
wear correctly and tolerate big horsey power...
No personal experience with the Cryo or bead blasting stuff, so no help there.
Tag your it Frank..
Daryl of AA Transaxle
425-788-4070
"On the cutting edge of Old technology"
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Frank
Grunthaner
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 7:08 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Conversion? JETTA ENGINE?? Now Vanagon TDi Transmission Survival
Strategy
Don,
Couldn't agree more with your comments. I have always viewed the SA drip plates
as a stopgap or bandaid strategy. There are obviously some strength of materials
issues. The use of different alloy materials in aftermarket gears; bead-blasting
for stress relief and cryo treatments all serve to move the failure point to the
next weakest component. For continuous use the real enemy is heat and cooling of
the transmission lubricant is a definite solution, as I indicated in that
lengthy post.
But a few more comments are possibly warranted. On the subject of bead blasting
and stress relief. The actual mechanism (of the bead-blasting effect) includes a
level of local surface annealing along with the generation of a whole collage of
micro fissures or cracks. Seen on the microscopic scale, the net effect is to
make the the top several hundred microns of the part into a poly crystalline
matrix. Consequently there are no well defined macro stress lines to lead to
simple fracture propagation. In essence, micro faults can open and close without
opening a break all the way through the part cross-section. If cryo-treatment is
done correctly, the part is first heated to a softening temperature, then
quenched in liquid nitrogen. The net effect is to amorphize the surface region.
This essentially randomizes the metal unit cell and makes the surface harder
than any crystalline equivalent. Done incorrectly, the cryo-treatment can give
very large stresses that can give a shattered part when subjected to use stress.
I'm almost convinced that the design of the vanagon transmission with the 4.57
or 4.83 R&P, updated 3/4 slider and beadblasted 3/4 gearsets can handle the TDi
torque load with temperature control. Start/stop stress is nicely handled by the
4 spyder gear mod to the differential carrier. The additional weak points of the
pinion bearing and the needle bearings may well be adequate with thermally
controlled lubrication. In my approach, I intend to pick up lubricant at the oil
drain plug, draw it out and through an inline particle filter to the 12v
gearpump, then send the liquid to the oil cooler (fan driven air-to-liquid) and
then a return to the filler hole in the case. I'm using an Audi squirrel-cage
injector cooling fan for moving air to the oil cooler (also taken from my
collection of Audi 5000T parts). The oil filler hole is not angled perpendicular
to the gear cluster, but rather is pointed towards the bellhousing at roughly
45˚ to the gear cluster. The clearance around the fill port is rather tight.
Nonetheless, I'm wondering if a modest nozzle forming aperture directed back at
the pinion needle bearing and 3/4 cluster area might not be advantageous? In
other words, would a directed fluid jet increase the lubricity and fluid
exchange in the gear cluster above and beyond the level achieved by the 30%
level of gear immersion? I'm also wondering about the oil level in the case at
speed. In other words, does the apparent oil level at the fill port decrease
when the vehicle is at speed wrapping around the gear cluster. This is important
for sizing the possible oil jet diameter and for determining the recirculation
rate - while staying away from cavitation or aerosol formation.
Finally, the character of the lubricant could seriously help here. The new
designer synthetic lubricants add several desirable properties to the problem.
First, they can maintain a low and uniform viscosity over a very broad range of
temperatures. Secondly, they conduct heat from metal interfaces much more
effectively that the older petroleum formulations. This means lower gear surface
temperatures and better heat transfer at the lube-to-metal-to-air interface in
the oil cooler. Third, they wet the metal gear surface more effectively
maintaining film adhesion under much higher contact pressures and shear forces.
Lastly, the molecular film drag is considerably reduced as compared to
traditional fluids. The LAT synthetic 75W140 synthetic racing gear oil seems to
be the current latest word for high shock pulse loads in differentials. Yet,
most manufacturers of synthetic racing gear oils do not recommend their use in
VW transaxle--WHY?
Questions, questions! I had hoped to provoke a response and discussion with
Daryll and/or other transmission professionals. Alistair recently brought to my
attention this excellent website on a Syncro Project (http://vanagonsyncroproject-herman.blogspot.com/).
Here Herman shows his transmission solution, but I'm reluctant to tear open the
transmission again. Fascinating approaches! Excellent reading.
Frank Grunthaner
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Hanson <dhanson928@gmail.com>
To: TDI-conversion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jan 4, 2010 7:11 am
Subject: Re: [TDI-conversion] Re: Conversion? JETTA ENGINE?? Now Some TDi
Comments (Shortened Version)
Scott, Frank
Here are a couple of ideas on helping a tranny stay alive when you are feeding
it big torque.
Keeping the internal temp down seems critical. A positive flow transmission
cooling system is beneficial. A good source for the components and plumbing
parts to fabricate one might be here:
http://www.batinc.net/porsche.htm
Go back to the BAT homepage for a huge selection of hydraulic fittings, hoses,
etc. No personal affiliation with BAT other than I used them when fabricating a
system for my big torque stroker V8 Porsche racecar transmission.
With some careful planning you'll be able to safely keep the operating temps
of your trans axle within acceptable limits. I was told the repeated failures I
saw, until I addressed the problem, were caused partially because, as the trans
axle gained excessive heat, the internal tolerances changed, generating further
heat ...creating a bad situation.. I say you must use "careful planning" for a
tans axle cooling system..It should be designed and executed so that if any of
the extra components (hoses, pumps, wiring, sensors, switches, etc) should fail,
the transmission will revert to it's 'un-cooled' state, rather than become
unlubricated..
I was able to configure the system on my 928 trans using the filler and drain
openings. Seems like this might be a viable approach for most trannys and a way
to work up a cooler system without extensive machine work on the transmission
cases..
You might also, should you have your tranny apart, consider having the internals
cryogenic-ally treated. I am told this is similar in results to bead blasting
(it is supposed to reduce 'internal stress' in the part that is 'super-cooled')
and the process is fairly rea$onable and quick. I was told all the NASCAR teams
do this routinely, so on my final transmission ( before I ran out of spendable
income and ceased racing my big sporty car) I had my internals cryogenic ally
treated. With good cooling and perhaps that cryo-treatment, I was able to race
a full season without another failure of my gears..Cryogenics might be BS, but
the cost was comparatively little in my racing budget so I did it and I'd do it
again for a high-torque application.
Running a Vanagon at sustained higher speeds against a headwind/uphill or with
a big load...in combo with extra power..it will create more heat in the
gears...If and when the internals become excessively hot the various components
expand, often at different rates, causing even more friction, which in turn
causes even more heat...Better to spend a few hundred on keeping things cool, if
you are running a power train that might push the design limits of your tranny.
Don Hanson
Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:42 AM, Scott Greiner <greines@yahoo.com> wrote:
Frank,
Thank you for your time and thorough details. If you are ever in the Phx, AZ
area, let me know! Dinner and Drinks are on me.
Scott Greiner
Mesa, AZ
1982 Diesel Westy-With a 1997 Jetta AHU 1.9 TDI
DZ Transaxle Re-Built with a 3rd 1.14, 4th .70 & a 4.57 R&P by AZTransaxles in
Phx, AZ - Thanks Bill
Engine Left Mount - "To clear the Turbo", Viton Fuel Line Kit & VS Sensor, etc
from GreaseWorks- Thanks Justin; great website!!
R&R of 1997 Jetta TDI Donor Car's Engine, ECU, Wire harness, intercooler,
rebuilting the turbo, in to my 82 Diesel Westy- Thanks Paul my friend &
neighbor.
Exhaust System - Stock 1997 Jetta's Header pipe with 4" high flow muffler form
local shop.
Misc parts, thanks BAP, PartsPlace Inc., Carl's VW Speed Shop, Autohaus
South Bend Clutch Inc - Thanks Andy for the 228mm Clutch Plate
Air Cleaner - K&N from Pep-Boys
Intercooler Piping Fabrication by my friend Mark-Thanks!
Lots of help from the awesome members of this forum-Thanks!
A whole lot of Vanagon Websites - Thanks for Shaing!
My Cuzin Carl for giving me this broken down VW Vanagon.
My Wife for putting up with me though all this. Thanks Margaret
My friend Zac for starting me on Bio-Diesel.
Adding a 1987 Vanagon Instrument Cluster "bought off E-Bay" for Cruise
Control-Soon!
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