Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:20:13 -0800
Reply-To: Zolly <zolo@FOXINTERNET.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Zolly <zolo@FOXINTERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: No current at FI injector plug - a repsonse
In-Reply-To: <016a01caa2c1$4b4855a0$6401a8c0@PROSPERITY>
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Scott,
Many thanks for the great write-up on the air cooled ignition system. You
mentioned, to change it to the later model system. Would you by any chance
have a write-up on that for us? I have two of those non-starting air-cooled
ones that I have trouble with and would not mind to change them to be
reliable.
I am not great with the electronics but I'm getting better.
Zoltan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: No current at FI injector plug - a repsonse
that isn't quite how I would check that circuit.
on my 80 to 81 Bentley manual it's on page 24.38.
and thank you !! ...for saying what test on what page you are working on.
Now THAT makes it so people can actually help you.
the book isn't 100 % clear in my mind ......I think they are saying connect
a 12 volt test light between the two pins of the connector,
and that it should flash when cranking the engine on the starter.
perhaps a 12 volt test light will flash like that.
on electronic fuel injection, I use what is called a NOID light.
it's like a little neon two prong bulb thing that for sure
flashes.................... if the ECU is firing the injectors and the
double relay is providing power one of the injector pins.
look at the page for wiring that says AFC 1981, 1981 at the bottom.
on my book that's 97012 and 97.13
in the top middle of the right hand page, is the double realy.
it only says 'fuel pump relay' on the right sidd of it, though.
the Double Relay is a dumb idea - it's the combined Main Relay and Fuel Pump
Relay in one unit.
If owned one of these, I'd convert it to separte main and fp relays like all
waterboxer vanagons, 83 and later have.
An easy conversion and much, much better in every way.
I consider the Double Realy on an air-cooled vanagon to be a weak link.
I think I have a used one for a non-Ca model with points igntion.
( btw if you have points, a fantastic upgrade is fit in 83 to 85 waterbocer
electronic igntion and distributor - a huge improvement. I've done it
before )
anyway ....on the left side of that double relay on the right page...
if you can read relays and wrinig diagrams you can see that when the
contacts of the left side of the double relay are closed, 12 volts is
routed to the white wires at all four injectors.
check for the presence of 12 volts there, with the key on, not cranking,
just key on.
if there is no voltage there...work on that ...starting at the realy.
and really, I would be SO FAST about replacing that hokey double relay with
two separte main and fuel pump relays , way mo' betta set up !
so if no 12 volts at the white fuel injector wires with key on ........work
on that.
if it is there ,
I would next use a NOID light, rather than a 12 volt test light to test for
injector pulse at the injector plugs.
( although, if the book says a 12 volt test light will work....I supppose it
should )
and if you don't get flashing there,
then check power to the ECU.
see how the power that goes to the white wires on the injectors also goes to
pin 10 of the ecu.
remove the big connector from the ecu ...
check if 12 volts gets to pin 10 of the ecu.
see how 12 volts goes through the 'air intake sensor' to other pins on the
ecu ?
that says to me the ecu won't get all it's power if the air flow meter is
unplugged...
if that's where the air intake sensor is .
I know you don't want to hear this, ( just want you van to work ) but these
early systems seem way funky to me,
and I'd convert one to waterboxer fuel injection, a quite nice and simplier
system.
that's what I tell Porshce 914 people too .......
a car that uses the same engine and system, roughly as yours, and they have
all sorts or weird problems.
Waterboxer fuel injection is pretty nice.
but anyway ......
dig into that wiring diagram and check for voltage gettting to and coming
out of the double relay.
also ....fuel pump not working could explain it not running.
so pursue that path too, if you don't find something on this injector
signals path.
it's got ignition.
good luck !
and grounds ....never fail to consider the grounds.
VW is so famous for this ...'all the improvements they made each year model'
.......what it really is they upgraded the weak stuff from earlier models.
There are grounds under your intake manifold that have push on spade
connectors - or once were ...
those all need to be converted to solid 'eye and screw' connections, to good
clean grounded metal.
can't say it enough ...about grounds. they gotta be good.
and they are originally and fundamentally weak on your year vanagon.
and also...
the temp sensor in the left head - another weak area.
how interesting they went from depending on that sensor getting ground
through the head, and on the next engine up, the waterboxer...there is a two
connector temp sensor for the ecu , with dedicated ground path.
Another example of VW fixing weakness in design as the years go by. They do
that a lot.
and Double Relays .....for some reason, I think they are just weak in
general. In a convertible bug with FI it's placed right where it well get
wet from rain if the top gets rotted. I could even say ............VW did
not get very good at fuel injection until about 1983.
And in 86 Digifant there's a system more evolved than the 83 to 85, and it's
pretty good.
The 83 to 85 Difiget system is nice and simple, inexpensive, and works well.
The Digifant has fancier more expensive idle control parts on it.
I think I have a Type IV engine temp sensor for the left yead too.
I wouldn't want much for it.
I don't work on air cooled VW's anymore, and barely will touch an air cooled
vanagon.
this should give you a few things to think about ,
good luck !
Scott
www.turbovans.com
----- Original Message -----
From: zzyzx
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:08 PM
Subject: No current at FI injector plug
1980 VW Vanagon Westy not getting fuel
Photos of engine compartment here.
Problem is engine starts fine if primed then quits once primer fuel is
exhausted. It will not start without being primed.
It seems the fuel injection system is not functioning properly.
I've checked grounds and plugs for sure fit.
Bentley outlines several tests which I've completed the following one
failed.
Bentley 1980-1983 pg. 24.6 suggests testing voltage supply at injector
plug by quote
1. remove connector from injector.
2. connect test light on connector plug.
3. operate starter, test light must flicker.
"If NO, refer to AFC Troubleshooting Guide (pg 7) catalog no. US
42-00-5955-1"
This test failed to produce a flickering of test light.
The fuel pump is delivering fuel to the ring. It seems the computer is not
signaling to the injectors properly
A google search of "US 42-00-5955-1" failed to yield useful results.
Any ideas as to what component could have failed or where to find AFC
Troubleshooting Guide (pg 7) catalog no. US 42-00-5955-1
Any guidance is appreciated
Steve
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