Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 21:01:16 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: No current at FI injector plug - a repsonse
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hi Zolly,
you may realize a 1.9 electronic ignition system is a completely 'stand
alone' electronic ignition system, includiung distributor, igniter, and
idler stabilzer. can coil.
there is exactly One Wire ...a white one, at the igniter that interfaces
with the ECU - that's how the ecu knows the engine is turning.
so ...it's a pure bolt in.
I forget how I did it, but ....basically ....the ecu of the air cooled
engine needs to see that white wire, so it knows the engine is turning.
see if you can look at an 83 to 85 wiring diagram in Bentley ....
find that white wire from igniter to an ecu pin.
then see if you can find the comprable wire to the air-cooled ecu. in that
wirign diagram.
it could be slightly more involved that that, but I don't think so.
it wasn't that hard to do.
I forget what I did about the vacuum hoses, but that's not too complicated
either.
I'd would convert the entire fuel injection to waterboxer personally.
I can't think of anything right off the top of my head that would be a
serious problem.
there are tons of dead 83 to 85 waterboxer vans sitting around.
I could probably supply a whole set - ecu, wring harness, etc. etc. etc.
I don't see Type IV engines very often anymore , but still, nothing pops
into my mind that would be a real problem.
thnking throttle switches , thinking temp sensor ,etc.
that would be a great upgrade to an air cooled vanagon.
there are two versions of air cooled vanagon. Ca and non-Ca.
When I accidently lived in Port Townsend Wa. for a while, I was shocked to
see air cooled vanagons with points, and no oxygen sensor.
No feed back to the ecu ? how crude ! How can that work even ??
which is another good reason to convert an non-Ca air cooled vanagon to
waterboxer fuel injection.
the distributor fits.
don't know if the throttle body will, but it could - just for idle contact
is all that is really needed ( WOT switch is nice to have too , since that's
stock )
air flow meter and air box , don't see a big problem there.
yeah...if your goal is to make your air-cooleds reliable ...
that's what I'd do anyway - convert to full 1.9 wbx fuel injection and
igntion.
those are all right systems.
so far I still can't think of a reason it couldn't or wouldn't work just
great.
a nice ubiquitous and easy to get system too, 1.9 wbx FI and igntion.
I've got four spare sets maybe, something like that.
that's what I suggest anyway.
would be quite rewarding.
what I like is the feeling of mastering the beast.
I like it because *I* built it, even if I'm using stock parts by VW , and
that means I understand it better,
and that means it will be more relaibel and fixable for me. Win-win all
around. Plus, it just feels good to be creative and clever that way.
I mean like.....if you build it, then you will understand it quite well,
and really..........it just amounts to what I call 'hooking up a complicated
stereo' - all the right wires have to go to the right places.
When you have more than one set of parts to work with, swapping components
for testing purposes is real handy too.
Scott
www.turbovans.com
From: "Zolly" <zolo@FOXINTERNET.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: No current at FI injector plug - a repsonse
> Scott,
>
> Many thanks for the great write-up on the air cooled ignition system. You
> mentioned, to change it to the later model system. Would you by any
> chance
> have a write-up on that for us? I have two of those non-starting
> air-cooled
> ones that I have trouble with and would not mind to change them to be
> reliable.
> I am not great with the electronics but I'm getting better.
> Zoltan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: No current at FI injector plug - a repsonse
>
>
> that isn't quite how I would check that circuit.
>
> on my 80 to 81 Bentley manual it's on page 24.38.
> and thank you !! ...for saying what test on what page you are working on.
> Now THAT makes it so people can actually help you.
>
> the book isn't 100 % clear in my mind ......I think they are saying
> connect
> a 12 volt test light between the two pins of the connector,
> and that it should flash when cranking the engine on the starter.
>
> perhaps a 12 volt test light will flash like that.
> on electronic fuel injection, I use what is called a NOID light.
> it's like a little neon two prong bulb thing that for sure
> flashes.................... if the ECU is firing the injectors and the
> double relay is providing power one of the injector pins.
>
> look at the page for wiring that says AFC 1981, 1981 at the bottom.
> on my book that's 97012 and 97.13
>
> in the top middle of the right hand page, is the double realy.
> it only says 'fuel pump relay' on the right sidd of it, though.
> the Double Relay is a dumb idea - it's the combined Main Relay and Fuel
> Pump
> Relay in one unit.
> If owned one of these, I'd convert it to separte main and fp relays like
> all
> waterboxer vanagons, 83 and later have.
> An easy conversion and much, much better in every way.
> I consider the Double Realy on an air-cooled vanagon to be a weak link.
> I think I have a used one for a non-Ca model with points igntion.
> ( btw if you have points, a fantastic upgrade is fit in 83 to 85
> waterbocer
> electronic igntion and distributor - a huge improvement. I've done it
> before )
>
> anyway ....on the left side of that double relay on the right page...
> if you can read relays and wrinig diagrams you can see that when the
> contacts of the left side of the double relay are closed, 12 volts is
> routed to the white wires at all four injectors.
>
> check for the presence of 12 volts there, with the key on, not cranking,
> just key on.
> if there is no voltage there...work on that ...starting at the realy.
> and really, I would be SO FAST about replacing that hokey double relay
> with
> two separte main and fuel pump relays , way mo' betta set up !
> so if no 12 volts at the white fuel injector wires with key on
> ........work
> on that.
> if it is there ,
> I would next use a NOID light, rather than a 12 volt test light to test
> for
> injector pulse at the injector plugs.
> ( although, if the book says a 12 volt test light will work....I supppose
> it
> should )
> and if you don't get flashing there,
> then check power to the ECU.
>
> see how the power that goes to the white wires on the injectors also goes
> to
> pin 10 of the ecu.
> remove the big connector from the ecu ...
> check if 12 volts gets to pin 10 of the ecu.
> see how 12 volts goes through the 'air intake sensor' to other pins on the
> ecu ?
> that says to me the ecu won't get all it's power if the air flow meter is
> unplugged...
> if that's where the air intake sensor is .
>
> I know you don't want to hear this, ( just want you van to work ) but
> these
> early systems seem way funky to me,
> and I'd convert one to waterboxer fuel injection, a quite nice and
> simplier
> system.
> that's what I tell Porshce 914 people too .......
> a car that uses the same engine and system, roughly as yours, and they
> have
> all sorts or weird problems.
> Waterboxer fuel injection is pretty nice.
>
> but anyway ......
> dig into that wiring diagram and check for voltage gettting to and coming
> out of the double relay.
> also ....fuel pump not working could explain it not running.
> so pursue that path too, if you don't find something on this injector
> signals path.
>
> it's got ignition.
> good luck !
> and grounds ....never fail to consider the grounds.
> VW is so famous for this ...'all the improvements they made each year
> model'
> .......what it really is they upgraded the weak stuff from earlier models.
> There are grounds under your intake manifold that have push on spade
> connectors - or once were ...
> those all need to be converted to solid 'eye and screw' connections, to
> good
> clean grounded metal.
>
> can't say it enough ...about grounds. they gotta be good.
> and they are originally and fundamentally weak on your year vanagon.
> and also...
> the temp sensor in the left head - another weak area.
> how interesting they went from depending on that sensor getting ground
> through the head, and on the next engine up, the waterboxer...there is a
> two
> connector temp sensor for the ecu , with dedicated ground path.
> Another example of VW fixing weakness in design as the years go by. They
> do
> that a lot.
>
> and Double Relays .....for some reason, I think they are just weak in
> general. In a convertible bug with FI it's placed right where it well
> get
> wet from rain if the top gets rotted. I could even say ............VW did
> not get very good at fuel injection until about 1983.
> And in 86 Digifant there's a system more evolved than the 83 to 85, and
> it's
> pretty good.
> The 83 to 85 Difiget system is nice and simple, inexpensive, and works
> well.
> The Digifant has fancier more expensive idle control parts on it.
>
> I think I have a Type IV engine temp sensor for the left yead too.
> I wouldn't want much for it.
> I don't work on air cooled VW's anymore, and barely will touch an air
> cooled
> vanagon.
>
> this should give you a few things to think about ,
> good luck !
> Scott
> www.turbovans.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: zzyzx
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:08 PM
> Subject: No current at FI injector plug
>
>
> 1980 VW Vanagon Westy not getting fuel
> Photos of engine compartment here.
>
> Problem is engine starts fine if primed then quits once primer fuel is
> exhausted. It will not start without being primed.
> It seems the fuel injection system is not functioning properly.
> I've checked grounds and plugs for sure fit.
> Bentley outlines several tests which I've completed the following one
> failed.
>
> Bentley 1980-1983 pg. 24.6 suggests testing voltage supply at injector
> plug by quote
> 1. remove connector from injector.
> 2. connect test light on connector plug.
> 3. operate starter, test light must flicker.
> "If NO, refer to AFC Troubleshooting Guide (pg 7) catalog no. US
> 42-00-5955-1"
>
> This test failed to produce a flickering of test light.
> The fuel pump is delivering fuel to the ring. It seems the computer is
> not
> signaling to the injectors properly
> A google search of "US 42-00-5955-1" failed to yield useful results.
>
> Any ideas as to what component could have failed or where to find AFC
> Troubleshooting Guide (pg 7) catalog no. US 42-00-5955-1
>
> Any guidance is appreciated
>
> Steve
>
>
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