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Date:         Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:48:25 -0800
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      VAnaoong and waterboxer engine - was : Exhaust Design  - caution
              longish
Comments: To: Don Hanson <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=original

( and not spell-checked either - that takes so long ! )

Hi Don, nice to see your words. I am not so 'down' on waterboxer engines. I just recognize their limitations. And their limitations are fascinating to me. Just like really good design is, so is less than stellar design.

and yes....my understanding is that Porsche's first waterboxer was the engine for the Boxster sports car. and they had serious problems....water in the oil maybe ... something like that.

oh man, I LOVE vanagons. and I will also be the first to say 'they take special care and understanding'

you can't drive one like an old toyota and never 'do anything' .....other than say the occasional oil change and replace the brake pads after 10 years... They'll bite ya if you try to use them long-term like you could an old totyota.

a vanagon WILL go a long time and keep functioning with serious neglect, but when it all catches up...... the van will need a LOT of repairs. That's how I and many people are able to buy vanagons for cheap. It costs the owner's a lot to go to shops..........that take their money, sometimes with not that great results for the amount spent... so naturally they would rather not take the van in for repair or service..... like going to the dentist - you'd rather not, since it's likely to be painful and expensive.

so the vans get neglected. I mean really ............how many shops will proactively change the brake fluid say ...and do that for under $ 100, including the clutch hydrualics and also give you a basic idea of how good overall the brake parts are ... not many. What they want to do is ...and This is What Most Shops Do ... the 'look for Justifyable, Profittale Repairs.'

in other words, nothing to do with what's best for the van and the owner's wallet- what's best for Them. So they tell you ... well, this is a little tired and that is, and you need to do both sides ...plus the master cylinder, etc. etc... and what might have been nothing 'that bad' is suddenly an 800 dollar issue.

So ....many people are reluctant to get the poor van serviced......cause it's expensive often. Sad thing is ... servicing a vehicle proactively is not hard, and doesn't need to be expensive. the brake fluid for a full flush opf brakes and clutch hydrualics, costs a shop ........not even $ 15 probably in brake fluid. An hour is plenty for pulling wheels, checking pads ...etc. That should go out the door for well under $ 100 .......and you know that you've got a basic brake inspection done ( rear drums can be hard to get off, so inspecting rear brakes inside the rear drums is not neccessarily a 15 minute deal though ) ... but people SHOULD be able to get good caring service like that, that is not 500 dollars on average per vist.

The vans are not bad. they have some demanding areas, particlarily cooling system. That part takes good care and understanding. and ......knowing that I am pretty demanding and critical about a lot of design things... I hope it's appreciated that I think about 85 % of everything on a vanagon is designed really, really well. Very few complaints actually.

I'll give you A Perfect Example.......of 'not real service' by car shops. Woman had an 87 GL....she says she smells coolant when she rolls down the window driving. She takes it to the local fancy foreign car repair shop. They say ..........'you need all new hoses' . and they want about $ 800. and ....that is REALLY a disservice becaue of the way too many to count hoses on an 87 GL ( if you count every last tiny and large rubber coolant hose in that van, it's about 35 or more ) ..... 90 % of those hoses last just indefenitely. I know they wouldn't replace every last one on the whole van anyway - just the big ones that were eay to get at most likley. AND ........it had ZIP to do with the woman's problem !!! I see this all the time too. Drives me nuts.

I get the van, in about 15 minutes I've found that the plastic 'nipple' fitting on the right side of the block is cracked. Later ones have that part in metal. The replacement part is metal. I just built one using the same plate from a 1.9 wbxr engine , drilled and tapged for a brass nipple. 'Bingo ... an hour job perhaps, $ 15 or 20 in parts.

My point is .....I don't blame people too much for not taking care of vanagons because so many shops are just after the money. Nothing to do with what S e r v i c e ....is. A concept not too popular in this culture seems to me. Like a nun is in Service to god, or like a nurse in is service...to his/her patiients.

if that was more avialable, people might take their vans in more for proactive service. like you know............check and change the fluids. Inspect things, Lube things that move.

and we manage to get along fairly well with the mickey mouse head gasket design on waterboxer engines. and.... it is so obviously a converted air-cooled design. Even VW themselvs have admitted it was under-designed and replace heads for people years after any warrantee had run out. And they haven't made that mistake again either .........that says something right there !

anyway.. it's all fasciating. and VW's are very lovable ...it's one of their great charms. I think people even LIKE that they are a little weak...because it brings VW lovers together ....dealing with fixin' 'em. Been that way in the US ever since VW's started being on our roads and blowing up in the 50's. LOL !! hey ..........that is WHY they make Bus and Van engines light and simple.... so you can yank the thing and rebuild it on your kitchen table ! It's all 'designed in.' Underbuilt - so it's underpowered to last better. Simple so it's easy to deal with when there is a problem with the engine. what's not to like !! ??

defenitely fun all right. and we do love our vanagons ! And they are not hard to take care of at all really. Heck....the bottom end of any 1.9 waterboxer engine, with any care at all, is good for 250,000 miles. Not too shabby. There are some GREAT features and things about vanagons.

Scott www.turbovans.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Hanson" <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:32 AM Subject: Re: Exhaust Design

> I must stick up for Scott. The WBX motor doesn't measure up, design > wise, > to many modern boxer motors...I have never owned a WBX motor, but I have > been around the Porsche designs for years, VWs more exotic cousins. When > Porsche made the switch to water cooling, they first tried a motor similar > in design to the WBX...and it showed it's design weakness right away > .Porsche soon moved on, recognizing the problems involved in trying to > water > cool a basic air cooled motor... They replaced the WBX/similar 993-style > motor with a design that was not based on aircooled. Subaru started right > out with a total new watercooled design and avoided the known problems we > know the WBX motors are prone to. > When Scott mentions the WBX as inferior to the Subaru, design wise, he is > only stating the truth. There are new to Vanagon people who come onto > this > list with no WBX knowledge and they may benefit from being forewarned > about > leaking heads, etc that they may encounter if they go "vanagon" and expect > super dependable. > Just sayin.. > Don Hanson > > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Chris S <szpejankowski@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I live for the day you answer a question without simultaneously >> bashing WBX and gloating over Subaru. We are all very familar with >> the ancient nature of WBX design. >> >> 2010/2/14, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>: >> > Hi All, >> > well , that is certainly exotic looking and is bound to help some. >> > >> > What I would think though is ..... >> > given the relatively extreme crudeness of the intake runners and >> > plenum, >> > is that if you can't get much good air flow going in, getting it out >> > downstream of the cylinders isn't going to help very much. >> > >> > I am talking about that small square hole in the air flow meter that >> > all >> air >> > that enters the engine has to go through, and >> > the crudeness of plenum and intake runners, and only one intake valve >> > per >> > cylinder , and 'ok' ports. >> > >> > for comparison ..........and to look at a somewhat similar engine >> > ........and aluminum block opposed four , ( just a decade-plus newer >> > in >> > design ) like the waterboxer but 'a whole lot more' ..........just look >> at >> > the intake system on a Subaru engine , starting with the 1990 EJ22. >> > >> > The throttle body is nice and big. The air mass meter obviously has to >> flow >> > better ........since the air does not pass through a small squareish >> > hole >> , >> > like it does in the waterboxers Air Flow Meter, and there is no flapper >> > valve in an air mass meter, like an air flow meter has. >> > Then look at the plenum area and intake runners. >> > The subaru plenum area is nicely cast into nice, large, 'swooping' cast >> > aluminum intake runners.........one nice casting. >> > They squeazed in a little more intake runner length by curving the >> intake >> > runners up some, then they turn and go straight down into the heads and >> have >> > 2 intake valves per cylinder. You just look at that shape ...and you >> > know >> > there is going to me more air getting into the cylinders than in a wbxr >> > engine, by far, is my guess. Inatake runner length is good for low end >> > power, more is better in that regard. >> > < some modern engines even have two different pathways through the >> > intake >> > system....one for low end, one for top end ) >> > >> > You just look at the soobie intake ...and see how much more air is >> > likely >> to >> > flow nicely with those intake runners compared to the >> > really...........'industrial grade' , like farm equipment almost >> > ,......waterboxer intake set up. >> > >> > I even have late-night wild plans to fit a subaru intake onto a >> waterboxer >> > engine ....though ........that might be impractical, and not even >> produce >> > that much of an improvement. >> > >> > There must be bigger air flow meters around that would work. >> > There have been attempts to fit an air mass meter to a waterboxer >> > engine >> > .....not totally successfully I don't think. >> > Besides flow reasons, and air mass meter has no moving parts in it , >> > and >> is >> > thus likely to be far more reliable, than an air flow meter with >> mechanical >> > sweep arm on electectrical contacts. I have said this for years ( >> > regarding fixing things , especially cars ) ...wherever electrons and >> > something mechanical interface - that's a weak spot. Arcing in switch >> > contacts would be an example, and the air flow meter sweep contacts >> > are >> a >> > really good example. >> > In air mass meters ........in my experience, I've never seen a >> > problem >> > with a subaru one. In my 88 740 turbo volvo sedan, >> > I have to clean the fine wires in the air flow meter every once in a >> great >> > while. You can even buy 'air mass meter cleaner' in a spray can, like >> > electrical contact cleaner, which probably works as well. >> > >> > anyway ..sorry to get off there... >> > but , I would have to say the entire intake area of a waterboxer engine >> is >> > rather restrictive, just eyeballing it. >> > and ...don't forget ........ >> > One of VW's traditional strategies ( not true in late model VW's ...but >> in >> > all air-cooled VW's , and waterboxers too ) .....is to keep it >> underpowered >> > to reduce stress on the somewhat underbuilt engine, to help it last >> longer, >> > at least with stock internal parts. >> > >> > The exhaust here looks wild and exotic - might as well plumb a turbo >> into >> > it if going to all that trouble ! >> > . >> > and ....I 'bet I could' fit Subaru sequential distributorless ( though >> I'd >> > use a distributor body for a place to mount a cam position sensor ) >> > Fuel >> > injection to a waterboxer engine. Can't think of any real reason that >> > wouldn't be possible. Those are darn strong and consistent fuel >> injection >> > systems. >> > >> > Scott >> > www.turbovans.com >> > >> > >> > Subject: Re: Exhaust Design >> > >> > >> >> Here's a good read with pics on a tuned system. >> >> >> >> >> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=270833&highlight=exhaust >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Kim Springer >> >> <kimspringer@astound.net>wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hey listers, >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Has anyone ever measured up a stock exhaust system to see where it's >> >>> designed to make HP. I assume VW did this a long time ago. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I guess another way to ask this question is: Did the folks making SS >> >>> exhaust >> >>> systems in a 4-2-1 or 4-1 design improve on what VW designed? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I have a book that helps to design 4-Stroke intake and exhaust system >> >>> lengths, inner pipe diameters, etc. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> All this talk about hollow cats makes me wonder about the secondary >> pipe >> >>> length. Not that anyone is going to gain 10 HP out of this.just >> >>> wondering. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Kim >> >>> >> >>> 88 Tristar #7 (it's either going to get painted or sold in the next >> year) >> >>> >> > >> >> >> -- >> Chris S. >> Disclaimer: "Death and serious injury may occur" >>


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