Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 07:46:03 -0500
Reply-To: Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Subject: VW quality & Mercedes FI & Japanese FI - was - Massive
Maintenance and cost
In-Reply-To: <4BC850C2.10908@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I believe VW has maintained excellent quality all along. The problem is /
was that they tended to stay on the leading (or I call bleeding) edge of
technology when it comes to things like fuel injection & engine controls.
BMW, Porsche and Audi do the same thing but Mercedes does not. That's why
Mercedes stuck with the CIS type FI system and only moved over to electronic
pulse type injection later, when all the bugs were worked out. Mercedes did
use a D-Jtronics in V-8's sold in the late 60s / early 70s but even then the
FI installed on the 6 cylinder was the same basic mechanical system that
flew over Germany during WW2.
The Japanese were also late adopting FI. The waited until all the bugs were
worked out. And even their own systems are clones or copies of Bosch
systems. This doesn't make them better, but maybe they are smarter.
In regards to Japanese overall quality? I suggest you compare the interior
of any 20 year old Japanese car with any 20 year old European car. Except
for cars that have been abused I believe you'll discover that the European
interiors held up better. The Japanese do a better job of appearance - sit
in a Japanese car and it looks nicer. This is not a reflection of quality,
only perceived quality.
Bosch has been the real innovators in all of this. They were instrumental in
every design innovation that stuck and they are still innovators today.
Bosch also makes rock solid equipment, even the wearing carbon strip on the
air flow meters (yah, I got it right this time) is just a high mileage
issue. Bottom line is it's a mechanical part and all mechanical parts
eventually wear out.
Tom,
Who uses 'preventative' instead of 'preventive' & will continue to do so.
Look it up in your dictionary.
www.kegkits.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of
Ken Wilford
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 6:58 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Massive Maintenance and cost
Um, actually this isn't the best moment to be discussing how awesome Toyotas
are. They have been at the top of the heap for a while now but they may
soon be dethroned by (drum roll please) VW. If you want to read about it
from news articles you can do so here:
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1161/volkswagen-
steals-toyotas-crown-as-worlds-largest-automaker/
and here:
http://www.4wheelsnews.com/volkswagen-to-become-worlds-biggest-car-manufactu
rer-by-2018/
and here:
http://www.4wheelsnews.com/vw-overtakes-toyota-to-become-the-worlds-largest-
car-manufacturer/
and here:
http://www.4wheelsnews.com/volkswagen-sets-its-main-target-dethroning-toyota
VW's quality is rising again. Instead of making a bare bones people mover
that is dirt cheap, they have decided to go for a more lucrative market
which is making a near luxury quality car at a mid level price.
That and having a brand in just about every car market in the world (even
China) has helped them to continue to grow and flourish while the other big
two car companies (GM and Toyota) are hurting.
All that said, does any of this discussion help us with our current Vanagon
that we all own and love? Of course not. I will say that the Vanagon is on
par with any mini-van made in the 80s or 90s or even today. The mileage is
normal for a minivan. Many of the modern ones that are out now only get
around 20 mpg (even the Japanese ones). If you have ever thought about
owning a different minivan and did some research into inherent problems you
will see that they all have them.
Ford Windstar had horrible transmission and engine problems. Chrysler's
famed minivan from the 80s was an utter piece of trash that people buy
because of the price not the quality (there wasn't any). The Japanese
minivans just didn't sell for whatever reason until the Honda Odyssey which
had major transmission problems up until just a few years ago. So I still
haven't found a replacement for my Vanagon even though I have looked around.
The quality level is better than most other minivans even today. It can be
reliable if you realize that you need to maintain it and if you do this
before things break you are not going to experience "Massive Maintenance and
Cost". You are going to have a reliable van that has tons of room inside
and is fun to drive. You aren't going to have a $6-800 monthly payment of
buying a new minivan so your Vanagon is actually cheaper to own and drive.
You have to keep things in perspective. A new minivan will cost you upward
of $30k and the instant you buy it, you start to lose money. Owning a
Vanagon you can buy a nice one for around $6k (passenger) and then when you
go to sell it in a few years you might get all of your money back. The
camper values were going up and up a couple of years ago and when the
economy smooths out will probably continue to do so. I really don't see how
Vanagon ownership is such a terrible thing.
Just my opinion.
Ken Wilford
John 3:16
www.vanagain.com
Arkady Mirvis wrote:
> Great response, David. Thank you. Ark.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Beierl" <dbeierl@attglobal.net>
> To: "Arkady Mirvis" <arkadymirvis@GMAIL.COM>
> Cc: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Massive Maintenance and cost
>
>
>> At 01:59 PM 4/15/2010, Arkady Mirvis wrote:
>>> German quality sucks since the end of Beetle era.
>>
>> Not to mention the decision to build the most expensive instead of
>> the least expensive cars in a given type.
>>
>> They were so far ahead of US automotive quality that they sat on
>> their hands while the Japanese zoomed past, then still sat on their
>> hands while US quality caught up and passed. Then they went (I've
>> heard) from 40% world market share to 10% in ten years. Which
>> reminds me to mourn the recent death of NUMMI, the Toyota-GM
>> partnership in California that let the Japanese learn how to deal
>> with unions and the Americans learn how to build a good Toyota
>> (Nova/Prizm).
>>
>>> I wish the handtwisting [and] neckgrabbing [that] Americans are
>>> enjoying doing to Toyota [would] be applied to german made cars
>>> which for a long time are far qualitywise behind cars of Japan in
>>> Consumer Reports.
>>
>> Me too! I wish VWAG had taken the Vanagon to Toyota and said "Don't
>> touch a thing -- just make it reliable." There's my dream vehicle
>> right there.
>>
>>> I've seen japanese cars where rubber parts look new after 25-30
>>> years.
>>
>> Yep. Although in fairness, every Toyota I've had has a little rubber
>> drain on the back of the front-corner marker lights, and they've all
>> rotted in 3-4 years.
>>
>>> In my 87 Westy all bellows are cracked.
>>
>> Yes! It's disgusting.
>>
>>> Pay attention to JAPANESE electrical work.
>>
>> Especially Toyota. They seal all their electrical plugs airtight
>> with O-rings and gaskets. But they all do pretty elegant work, and
>> aren't stingy with relays.
>>
>> And another thing -- on Toyotas, anyway, fully-inserted bolts usually
>> come unstuck with a bump and then are immediately removable with the
>> fingers.
>> However they're getting them to seal, it's working.
>>
>> Yours,
>> David
>
