Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 20:03:56 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: All engines have issues...
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'Older mechanic'....lol.
Yes, it's very true the early inline fours had a valve seal problem, to the
point that on the gas filler door they put a notice saying to check the oil
level every fill up.
I was working on foreign cars in a shop in the 70's gasoline Rabbits
started showing up.
the carb version was a terrible rats nest of vacuum hoses.
'diesel a flop' ...what blasphemy !
I thought I was the poster with the worst rep for being anti-diesel , lol.
'needed' a knock sensor ?
I always consider those to be more advanced technology, and always
desirable, and not a 'fix' or band aid in any way.
Knock sensors are very good to have on any engine.
They can run at as much advance as they can get away with that way, and not
detonate. It's 'smart' ignition timing.
EGR is never really a good thing, necessary for emissions often, , but never
nice to have.
replaceable cylinder liners and barrels are always great to have.
one of the good things about the waterboxer for sure.
there are only two things really not excellent about waterboxer engines ..
one, they are marginally powered at higher speeds for our driving
environment ...
I 'figured out' that they really were intended to be 55 to 65 mph vehicles.
Indeed, some early ones have the National 55 mph speed limit marked on the
speedo.
These days we want to operate them at 65 to 70, even faster sometimes...
and the other thing is the 'non head gaskets'.
They work well enough ...we get whatever, 6 years at least out of a good
head gasket job ..
but as head gaskets go in engines they are not real head gaskets.
it's silly to have the combustion sealing and the coolant sealing on two
different surfaces...
at two different levels.
totally Mickey mouse. A lash-up retrofit to an air-cooled design if there
ever was one.
Virtually ALL other engines , or 98 % of all other engine designs, have flat
bottomed heads, with the combustion sealing and coolant sealing handled by
one heavy duty 'real' ( not o-rings, or rubber water retention gaskets, or
metal sealing rings ) but a heavy duty 'real' one-surface flat head gasket,
held down with thousands of lbs of force,
and since it's flat, it's very easy to resurface.
so other than those two weaknesses, , they're great. They have bomber bottom
ends, especially the 1.9 wbxr.
Those'll run nearly indefinitely with any care.
and ....compared to diesels, tdi's and 1.8 T five valve gas engines ...
no timing belt to let go to blow things up ...
that's *real* nice ...that a waterboxer is like that.
my 'dream' waterboxer only has two real changes...
keep the pushrods and timing gear in the case...that works great, no timing
belt to replace or break.
Then just make it 4 valves per cylinder, and flat bottomed heads ...with
real head gaskets.
hey ....except for the push rod part that sounds like subaru heads. ! .....
..hmmm...
there are performance pushrod engines of course ...Corvette probably being
the best example. And Roger Penske, as an entrant, not driver, famously won
the Indy 500 with a push rod engine. The rules allowed more boost or
displacement or something if using pushrods rather than OHC ....that loop
hole allowed them to have more power than most of the other race cars.
So it doesn't always have to be overhead cam.
wow, and I thought tdi injectors at about $ 1,100 for a set of four at the
dealer was bad.
$ 635 each at only 57,000 miles ....not too good I must say. Do you use a
diesel fuel additive ?
it's all good automotive fun.
Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Haynes" <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: All engines have issues...
> In the early 80's most VW products had 1.6 or some 1.7 liter engines, many
> were still carbureted. Fuel injection was CIS. The Rabbit GTI was amongst
> the first to get a 1.8. Those early engines may have been considered but
> the
> Diesel was a major flop. Those early engines also had problems with valves
> guides and seals and head bearing issues. Ask any older mechanic about the
> smoking rabbits.
>
> Another issue most likely is emissions. If you understand engine design
> the
> WB has a number of features to reduce NOx and also allow for a engine that
> can be operated with the pedal down for long periods. Lower compression
> and
> the dished pistons are the major design features not in the I4 of the
> time.
> The Rabbit GTI needed a knock sensor and EGR.
>
> While not perfect the WB is a good engine in many ways. Lots of engines
> have
> head gasket or other problems. Keep in mind that back in those days few
> vehicles went past 100,000 miles. So what is the big deal if you need head
> gaskets? It is just a repair. As for the "wet liner" design, most big
> diesel
> engines are built this way. In the Diesel world engines such as the Cat C7
> in my motor home that have the cylinders bored in block, (parent bore) are
> considered cheapies. Engines with replaceable liners that can be
> overhauled
> "in frame" are highly desired.
>
> As for repair costs I had two injectors in my motor home go bad last
> Christmas on the way home from Florida. Dealer said need 6 injectors and
> high pressure pump. Estimate was $6,000. I replaced the two injectors that
> went bad myself. They cost $635 EACH. This was for an engine that just
> turned 57,000 miles. I prefer to do the Vanagon head gaskets.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> Scott Daniel - Turbovans
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:54 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: All engines have issues...
>
> very well said.
> 'unremarkable is a good word to use regarding them.
> I did one in 1998 or so. ..
> diesel vanagon, but in an 88 jetta 1.8 Digifant engine.
>
> mostly ...as you say, 'the just work.'
> Possibly the least hassle, least demanding but reliable Vanagon engine
> conversion.
>
> it's strange VW didn't do it themselves, it's such a natural.
> There is suspicion that politics, like union factors, dictated keeping an
> opposed four in the vanagon after the air-cooled ones, and the waterboxer
> is
> clearly an adapted air-cooled design. They could have done very well
> indeed
> with a 1.8 or 2.0 inline four ..
> and heck...in South Africa the stock vanagon engine is an inline 5 water
> cooled, cast iron block, aluminum head.
>
> anybody happen to know if the 2.5 liter inline 5 93 Eurovan engine fits
> well
> enough, or has been adapted to fit into a vanagon ?
> I know there are Audi five cylinder conversions....just don't know if
> that's
> the same engine block or not. I have a donor evurovan for that if I don't
> make it run instead.
> Scott
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Hanson" <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:02 PM
> Subject: Re: All engines have issues...
>
>
>>> but a GOOD well done EFI 1.8 inline four gasser is a very decent
>>> pacakge.
>>> Just not overly powerful. About the same as waterboxer ir slightly
>>> better
>>> maybe,. but smooth ..
>>> and can be super reliable.
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>> This is second-hand and speculation, since I have never personally
>> rebuilt
>> either of the motors, but reading and pricing through the Net I think if
>> you
>> were to rebuild a WBX motor and an inline four VW, the inline would cost
>> perhaps 1/4 as much to do and likely last better.
>>
>> I did plenty of research as I looked at Vanagons before I got mine. The
>> WBX motor didn't get the best reviews for the most part. There wasn't
>> much
>> data on inline 4 conversions at all, other than some bad rap about the
>> TIICO
>> ones.
>> When I saw the one I ended up buying for just $3k I decided to give it a
>> go, for that kinda cash it was worth a chance on a combo that had little
>> "Press" ...
>> I have since learned there are plenty of "Us" out there...but nobody much
>> seems to say anything about our vans cause they are .....unremarkable.
>> They
>> just work, no fuss, no clouds of burning tire smoke leaving stop signals,
>> no
>> '10 car passes going up Tioga Pass, no 95mph average trips across the
>> Mojave
>> Desert, no 'fooling the VSS with a Hall sensor and a re-programmed "EProm
>> widget" no upside down and backwards cooling systems.....Just a plain old
>> Vanagon rolling down the road for little money without many problems...
>> "Perfect"? Hardly! Good enough? Yes
>> Don Hanson
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