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Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 2010 00:16:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
In-Reply-To:  <BAY132-DS19CCD5A65A420F449117CDA0D10@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Please note correction below. The Waterboxer water does not normally wear out until well after other parts of the engine have. You normally won’t fix an oil pressure problem with a pump.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Haynes Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 11:02 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?

Except for improper assembly by someone else, I have <NEVER> taken care of a water boxer oil pressure problem by replacing the pump. An oil pressure test and good analysis will tell all. An oil condition test may also reveal if the bearings are worn out.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of M. Jade Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 1:08 AM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?

I know short driving is not good for the engine. I have no choice because that's all I need for my daily driving mostly. That's why I don't drive it everyday. I put some mileage on the Honda too.

The GM certified coolant is what's available and not that expensive. I have used it for several years. If it is not a wrong one I will just use it. It's good that it will last 5 years. My mechanic confirmed to me that it needs not replaced until 5 years in the system.

I will have the oil pressure checked. I think it will come out low. I will need to find out if the oil pump needs service or it is the engine that is quitting. By the way, when I changed the oil 2 weeks ago I did not see metal particles in the oil. I hope this means it is the oil pump that is weak.

Thanks everyone's response. I will be back to report what I find out in a couple of weeks.

--- On Mon, 5/31/10, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:

From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> Subject: Re: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine? To: "M. Jade" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM>, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 9:35 PM

hi again, short trips are hell on engines. You should be able to take only short trips on any engine for a long, long time, but that is extremely rough on them. Until it's fully warmed up, more wear than is desireble is occuring. I have seen a head gasket blown on a Suzuki Samura in under 30K miles... just from very short trip operation only.

same for an 87 wateboxer vanagons ....running terribly , smoking etc. When I got it to my shop and looked at it carefully....I knew what was going on. That poor van got driven in town, in the winter for about 8 blocks, then shop for a while, then 8 blocks home. They really must be driven until fully warmed up, as much as possible.

your coolant sounds like GM's version of Dexcool maybe. Dexcool is orange, and related to GM I believe anyway. I have it on one of my cars. Would not normally use it. I have not found that the aluminum engine and cylinder heads need exotic coolant... though I have a trick/addtive that really helps as a rust inhibitor, water pump lube, been doing that for decades on cars and vanagons.

I doubt 'the wrong coolant' could contribute much to making oil hotter.

I will tell you a story about engine wear and driving up a long, long hill in the summer with a big load... my 1970 Mercedes Benz 250 sedan Vanagon tow car. I've towed vanagons up to 1.000 miles at a time with Ursula. Going north out of Susanville, Ca there is about an 8 mile grade. I was towing a vanagon up that hill, on a hot summer day. the coolant temp just kept going up and up and up. ( Dexcool in that car btw ...if you read the side of the bottle it says boiling point at 50/50 is way up there, 253 degrees F I think ) . So I'm climbing up this long grade, and didn't think I had a coolant leak, just too much load on an old radiator, and just kept pushin' her.  I knew to stop would mean boiling over anyway, so hoped to make it to the top. And , no kidding, the temp guage was maxed ...100 % pegged. But, 1/4 mile short of the top, she just flamed out. Fuel vaporization ....vapor lock. Got things cooled down, fuel turned back to a liquid, got going again. Ran out of gas later that night and everything, great adventuere. Got back to home base the next day.  Fuel pump was a little leaky, but the whole car engine and cooling system seemed fine.  Pegged the temp guage at about 250 F and she didn't boil over, and didn't blow the head gasket, or burst a hose. I was sure impressed !  ( that car owes me nothing btw .....owned her forever ) A year later, I get Usula ready for another vanagon tow. I hadn't changed the oil filter for a while, so did an oil and filter change. the oil filter was packed, almost, with fine copper. That can only be rod bearing material...or it certainly fits that that's rod bearing metal. Often if there is metal in trans or gear oil you can see it in the drain pan even. She still runs fine too, no rod knock, decent oil pressure, but I am pretty sure those rod bearings are very worn. I put them in in 1987...I guess I got my value out of them.

I hope that didn't happen to your engine  ! scott

----- Original Message ----- From: "M. Jade" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 7:45 PM Subject: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?

The oil pump was never serviced before. The engine is original, never rebuilt. The head gaskets were done by a VW dealer. The heads are still the original.

Is it likely a problem in the oil pressure regulator thing at the lower corner at the bottom of the engine? My Beetles had that thing in the engine. They never had any problems though.

I think the engine sounds fine. I do not hear any unusual clicking noise other than when the lifter collapsed and clattered for a while.

Well, I forgot to mention that I am not using VW blue coolant right now. I use the red GM certified coolant at about 50/50 coolant water ratio. The label says it's good for aluminum cylinder head and change every 5 years. Can this cause the oil to overheat? I was in a coastal mountain road a month ago going like 5 - 10 MPH uphill for about half an hour. The coolant temperature really went up a lot. The needle on the gauge went up passing 3/4 of the scale and the radiator fan kicked in and remained on for a long while. It was still quite normal I think. It's supposed to be like that. It was always like that before. But is it a bad coolant to use? Does it have less heat absorbing capacity that causes the cylinder head to overheat thus followed by oil overheating?

I have driven my Vanagon for short distances, like less than 5 miles, a couple of times a day for many years. Sometimes I just parked it for several days and drove my little Honda instead. I am surprised by the problem indeed.

--- On Mon, 5/31/10, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:

From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> Subject: Re:      Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine? To: "M. Jade" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM>, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 7:15 PM

hi. I haven't seen that clogging of the oil pump pick up screen myself, though I'm sure that's possible. You could sneak a peek inside the sump by removing the oil filler tube. Might not be able to see much that way ...but 'maybe' it could reveal something.

in my world, I never find it necessary to 'service' waterboxer oil pumps. I suppose they can get worn some , but I've never had a problem there myself.

the cover gasket, on the oil pump, is an extra thing gasket that seals the outer cover of the oil pump to the oil pump body. That cover is the end plate for the two gears in there. If someone put in a normal thickness gasket there, the clearance on the end plate would be too large to the gears. But someone would have to not know what they were doing to do that mistake. And it's not something that's normally even messed with in my opinion, not that some people may improve waterboxer oil pressure by looking into the oil pump situation.

you need to remove the left lower tin/rock protection cover from the left cylinder head. the oil pressure switch where you'd measure oil pressure is under that cover, between push rod tubes. Those lower tins can be hard to get off sometimes, as they are secured at the top by exhaust studs or nuts, and those are rusted sometimes etc.....if taking things apart on your engine is not something you usually do , might leave that to your shop technician. Scott

----- Original Message ----- From: "M. Jade" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 6:59 PM Subject: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?

Oil overheating is a real possibility. The oil level is fine. When the oil was changed the oil level was just at the low mark on the stick. I changed oil and filled up to about mid point between the marks.

I never had the oil pump serviced. I don't think the dealer touched it when they did the head gaskets 10 years ago. I believe the dealer did it without even dropping the engine. So its internal is really never touched by anyone.

How do I check the oil pressure? Oil pressure gauge is available at most car parts places. If it is easy to do I will check it myself. Is it a job belonging to a Vanagon WBX specialist? Is it likely that the oil pump need servicing?

Wrong cover gasket? Do you mean cylinder head cover gaskets? They were replaced for sure. Can leaking head cover gasket causing oil pressure problem? This would be easy to fix.

I have been using Bosch and Fram oil filters from nearby parts stores. They have worked fine for many years. I don't feel that the oil filter is causing the problem. I have changed it at least twice.

Thanks for your reply. I will have the engine oil pressure checked soon.

--- On Mon, 5/31/10, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine? To: "'M. Jade'" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM>, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 6:16 PM

The fact that you are getting lifter clatter along with the oil pressure light indicates that you indeed have an oil pressure problem. Since this is an older engine with possibly an unknown maintenance history and a lot of down time it is possible that the oil inlet screen is getting block with carbon and other debris including silicone from that head gasket job. I have seen a number of 19 develop this issue, some with well under 100K. This is elusive as after shut down the stuff falls off and everything will be normal even during oil pressure testing. Normal driving sloshing etc. will make the stuff suck up to the screen and block it again.

The 1.9 is also notorious for the main and cam bearing journals wiping out. An oil pressure gauge will show this as soon as the engine warms up. Has anyone serviced the oil pump? The wrong cover gasket will also cause oil pressure problems.

Now for the big question, how is the oil level? Since it is recovering after a few miles of low speed driving it could be the oil is overheating. The most common cause of oil over heating on the Waterboxer is overfilling. The top mark is not the full mark. It is the maximum do not ever exceed no matter what mark. 4.5 quarts with filter at oil change time is plenty. Oil will stay cooler near the lower mark.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of M. Jade Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 6:56 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?

My engine recently developed a problem I can not fix. It is a 85 Vanagon with a 1.9 WBX engine with 140k miles. There was work done to the cylinder head gasket about 10 years ago. It runs very well still. I made a 200 miles trip yesterday and everything appeared OK except this problem.

Every time I got off a freeway and came to a red light the oil light would either blink or turn on steadily. Continue to drive a few blocks the symptom would go away. A few times one or more of hydraulic lifters would collapse and make clapping noise. They would recover if continued driving for a a minute. Temp gauge showed normal. There was no coolant leak or anything. It ran absolutely no problem if drove back on to freeway. In fact it ran very well with plenty of power yesterday during the 200 mile trip.

Is it developing a serious problem now? I am running 10w40 oil. But changing to 20w50 made no difference. I have had two oil filter changes already. No change. I am not ready to give up this engine at only 140k miles. I don't think it is an oil pressure sensor issue. At one time I was in a stop and go situation for a while the oil light came on. So it does not have to be driven on the freeway to have the problem.

This engine has been very reliable with no problems for the past 10 years. I don't drive it much but do occasionally took it to trips of a couple of hundred miles. Am I dealing with an engine that is ready to quit? Thanks for any suggestions.


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