Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 15:06:33 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: lug nuts torque-
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original
It's ok on modern tires to cross-rotate them..
when radials first came out it was a big no-no ..
but in the last 10 to 15 years they have decided it's ok.
I only move them when there is a reason to.
'never' checking on the spare, or runing it on the ground some is just dumb
to me.
I think tire stores really miss out on a lot of sales by not seeing what the
spare tire deal is.
for example...say you are getting 4 new tires....the smart thing to do is
save the best one for a spare, and change out the oil spare tire.
There are MANY vans running around, with 20 + year old spare tires ...
some of the even flat spare tires.
it's an area frequently overlooked ...untilt the spare is needed.
and sure...if you have 5 tires of the same type ....a 5 tire rotation is the
best deal.
It's a waste to have a tire for a spare that is 18 years old, and has 90 %
or 100 % tread left.
A 'good spare' tire to me is one that has some use on it ...
not bald, not leaking or flat, and not new tread-wise but very old
years-wise.
there's no real difference between 120 ft lbs and 120 ft lbs in practical
terms.
If they insisted on 120 ...I'd let them do it, then do it my way when I got
home.
half inch drive breaker bars ...
there are two kinds ..the common one is sort of a u-joint thing on the end
..I have broken off those very, very easily. Not worth having.
Recently a store with such cheap stuff in it that I am afraid to shop in any
more ,was having a sale on breaker bars.
they had 3 types..
the simple 'almost cross type u-joint at the top' type.....in 18 inches.
then the one I got ...18 inces long where the business end is forked sort of
...and the half inch drive part sites inside that ....those are much
stronger. It was $ 11 on sale.
( the reason I specificall wanted on like that was ....
when undoing caliper mointing bolts ...sometimes those are on tighter than
hell...and with a 3/4 inch drive breaker bar with a fixed 90 drgree angle on
it ....as you really cream down trying to loosen those caliper bolts...there
is a tilting angle too ....which limits how well you can apply force. With a
flex-head breaker bar ..you can move the handle outboard some ...so the
force angle is purely rotational, with no tilting affect...
way much mo' betta.' Significanlty so.
the other one was 24 inches ..too long.
and I like a nice 6 point impact gun socket a deep one, for my lug nuts and
bolts.
Non impact sockets can split on the sides used cavilierly ..
that can't happen with an impact socket.
all 2WD vanagons have bolts in front, studs with nuts in the rear.
'Amost' the only car that's mixed that way.
Almost all other cars have one system or the other on both ends.
Studs with nuts is the better stronger set up. Easier to mount the wheel
too.
since you have 5 new matcing tires ...do the 5 tire rotation ..
to 'spend the least' over the long run...
rotate 5 until they are about half worn...then save one a good and partially
worn spare ...
then next time just buy 4 new ones, and rotate those 4 only. But your spare
will have excessive years on it if you do that and will be offically
speaking 'aged out.'
I bet there is a lot of misinformation in wheel and lug botl/nuts specs at
tire stores.
if 2WD vanagons have nuts and bolts..
and their system only talks about nuts ..
you know right there their system's specs are not complete and accurate.
I do not trust tire stores at all myself.
I just bring them my wheels and tires to mount and balance as I ask them
too.
if they won't like Les Schwab won't , I find a tire place that will.
heck....I think I did this once already ..
but at my tire store that I do to for a few years now ..
last time I was there, I told them I was willing to pay extra for them to do
it right.
Tire mounting people take great pride in how FAST they can do it. ( I have
mounted and balanced tires on a tire machnine myself hundreds of times ) ..
so it's always '...get the car in the bay, get the wheels off, get the old
tires off the wheels, new tires on , and balance ..and FAST ...FAST FAST
FAST...
that is what they consider good.
so last time I had four mounted for a vanagon of mine, one was leaking badly
in a few days..
and sure, sometimes you get a tiny rim leak...that happens...no big deal.
but on this particular rim leak ..
there was a big chunk of rubber ...from using the tire machine to peal the
tire onto the rim ...
and being in a hurry ...they got an inch long piece of tire rubber between
tire and rim.
And that inch long piece would not even come off the tire if doing the work
carefully.
and it sure would not end up between tire and rim if being even half
careful.
as I said, I told them I was willing to pay extra for having them do it
carefully, rather than very quickly.
That is so funny...
"I have a special requirement, and I am willing to pay extra. I want it done
right and good careful work.."
I would say you really are going get true excelence and real care ...MAYBE
....not even 10 % of the time, in car repair, vanagon repair, and tire
mounting - Based on what I see in the real world of vanagons.
Perhaps it's not really quite that bad, but sloppy work at tire stores is
not uncommon.
I'm talking about *everything* being exactly precisely where it belongs,.
all things adjusted to spec and matching , no fingerprints on anything,
nothing lost or broken or overlooked...all the tiny details.
frankly, I do not perceive that that is really even available very often.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mcneely" <mcneely4@COX.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: lug nuts torque-
---- Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM> wrote:
> and checking how tight they are after getting van back from a tire store -
> very smart !
Just got back. Lug bolts (not nuts, which I said previously in error) were
torqued at the shop to the 130 ft. lbs specified in the owner's book (I saw
the tech make the adjustment on the wrench and tighten to the click). An
odd thing there (Discount Tires): the clerk ("Assistant Manager" -- aren't
they all?) told me his spec for the torque was 120 ft. lbs, and showed me on
his computer screen. I questioned that, and he read further, finding that
his program stated that the 120 ft. lbs was for lug nuts, and that the
torque for lug bolts might differ (but it didn't specify what it should be).
Do any of you have nuts on studs, rather than bolts in holes? Just
askin'............... .
BTW, I have no trouble loosening the lugs with my 4-way (just checked after
returning from the tire shop), but I likely will get a breaker and socket --
for the easier storage if for nothing else. Why haul around 3 extra arms
and sockets I don't need? So, is an inexpensive breaker ok, or do I need to
pay a higher dollar? Are they adjustable for torque, or do I use it like I
have always used any lug wrench -- tighten until it seems right?
Wow, I seem naive for an old fart, but I've never used anything other than a
lug wrench on wheels.
Another question -- The owner's manual says to rotate the tires front to
back and back to front, with no crossover. That's like we used to do with
directional radials, but most are not directional now. I have symmetrical
tires, and I like to include the spare in the rotation. The tire shop guy
first said to just move them around the vehicle in a circular fashion
including the spare. Then he found in his service book that said if the
customer insists on including the spare in the rotation to switch the spare
for the right front, which becomes the spare, cross the rears to the front,
move the fronts straight back to the rear. I have always crossed rears to
front as his service book said, but I was just wondering what most folks do.
Also, his service book stated that it is "not recommended" to include the
spare in the rotation. Why would that be? He had no explanation. I prefer
to include the spare in the rotation so as not to accumulate an old but not
used tire -- I bought five tires new 14 months ago, and they now have a bit
over 6K miles. At that rate, these tires will still be around in 8 or 10
years. I should use all five, seems to me. BTW, they are Kumho 857s, and
they are wearing wonderfully well -- nice and even across the tread, even
around all four tires.
David McNeely
