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Date:         Wed, 30 Jun 2010 19:00:18 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Oil leak since rebuilt 2.1l installed
Comments: To: Ry <rylincoln@GMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=original

hi Ry, you know about the 'standard' loose lower alternator bracket thing ...right ? they get loose down there.... visual symtom is alternator jumping around at idle... if everything is tight...they don't visually vibrate, even with stock tension bracket.

left long enough, it'll just bust off the two studs the lower alt bracket sits on in the block. and I have several of those lower brackets just cracked or broken in half.

might want to make sure that's all tight down there. It's a classic vanagon thing. I also find 2.1's with loose or noisy alternator bearings - always worth a hand spin when belt is undone.

we don't actually know yet if the breather tower is working. I 'don't believe' in them not working ..but it is what controls crankcase breathing. and I've heard of rear main seals just 'not working' too.

here's a cheater test ....'might' provide useful information .. run it with the dipstick not inserted about an inch ., or half an inc. . to relieve crankcase pressure. see if that reduces rear main oil seal leak. 'not likely' but then for so little effort, it's a good test to do.

on my own high milage volvo 740 turbo engine .... it'll push oil out the cam seal into the timing belt area ... and those engines have a breather system that's hard to get too, and may not be too 'strong' anyway .. by running with my dipstick lifted up half an inch .. oil doesn't get into the timing belt area , and I've done the seals there too - it's a breather/crankcase pressure problem, and having dipstick lifted up half an inch releives the pressure, and the oil leak into the t-belt area.

but no harm in giving that a try.. not a repair, but just a cheater test as I said. One of my many tricks.

Scott

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ry" <rylincoln@GMAIL.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 6:27 PM Subject: Re: Oil leak since rebuilt 2.1l installed

> Well, > Crankshaft doesn't move a bit. While I was there I did some other work, > like installing the upgraded stronger alternator bracket i've had laying > under the back seat. Alternator doesn't vibrate around at idle anymore! > > I removed the ventilation hose that comes from the tower and can make air > flow in both directions, so not clogged, maybe not working properly but > shouldn't be clogged. > > More and more things point to the Rear Main Seal. > > > -Ry > http://www.google.com/profiles/rylincoln > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 7:04 PM, John Rodgers <inua@charter.net> wrote: > >> I have had the crankshaft seal at the tranny/crankcase connection leak >> twice, both times requiring removing the tranny and installing a new >> seal. >> The first time was three weeks after a complete rebuild by a very >> competent >> local engine re-builder who has rebuilt hundreds of Volkswagen engines, >> including the WBX'r. It happens. >> >> About 6-8 weeks ago, I had to have that seal replaced again - same >> engine - >> now with 150,000 on it. It happens. >> >> I rebuilt a 6 cylinder horizontally opposed cylinder aircraft engine, >> directed by the very best Aircraft Engine Mechanic I ever knew. The front >> crankshaft seal by the propeller flange of the crankshaft leaked in less >> than 10 hours of operating time. It happens. >> >> I sent the propeller and governor off of my 1968 Cessna 210 to an FAA >> Certified Repair station for a rebuild. Neither is a field repairable >> appliance and to be leagal must be rebuilt by a certified overhaul shop. >> , >> and require a certificates of compliance to be returned to service. The >> governor leaked almost from the get-go after re-installation. It >> happens. >> >> But in this case - I cheated a little bit. I didn't want to be grounded >> for >> another week to ten days to wait for the round trip back to the repair >> station and back. I knew the likely culprit - a $0.50 O-ring right in the >> top of the thing. I cut the safety wire, removed the cover, removed a >> little cap inside, tilted back the counter-weights, replaced the O-ring, >> reassembled it and re-safetied the top back on, re-installed the thing >> and >> flew it several hundred hours without further ado. It was going strong >> with >> no leaks when I sold it and the new owner flew it away. >> >> John Rodgers >> Clayartist and Moldmaker >> 88'GL VW Bus Driver >> Chelsea, AL >> Http://www.moldhaus.com >> >> >> >> On 6/30/2010 5:26 PM, Ry wrote: >> >>> Well that bracket isn't bolted to anything because .......? it's bolted >>> in >>> 8 >>> other places, mine doesn't budge a millimeter the way it is, I've seen >>> other >>> people leaving this bracket off. no i won't jump off a cliff if they do >>> though! :) >>> >>> Are you thinking it has an effect on my issue or are you just pointing >>> out >>> the obvious for me? :) >>> >>> I'm also familiar with the complete idiots guide from when I owned a >>> 1967 >>> beetle. I thought it was a good read, comical and whatnot with >>> some philosophical insight into life. Didn't know it would be very >>> applicable to a 1991 Vanagon. I should pick up another one just to have >>> around, if for nothing more than the cover. >>> >>> >>> peace, >>> -Ry >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Karl Wolz<wolzphoto@q.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> It's been a while since I've had reason to look at my tranny/engine >>>> interface, but your photo brings up a question. Why is (I'm assuming) >>>> the >>>> exhaust bracket not bolted onto something? >>>> >>>> Get a copy of John Muir's book, "How to keep your Volkswagen alive for >>>> the >>>> complete idiot". It lays down some simple rules for the use of the >>>> book, >>>> one of which is, in all descriptions, front is front, like by the >>>> headlights, back is back, like by the taillights. I am not quoting, >>>> since >>>> I >>>> cannot lay my hands on my copy right now. >>>> >>>> I've had leaks from the front main seal before that we had a heck of a >>>> time >>>> getting rid of. Turns out there are two main seals listed for the >>>> application; one is, IIRC, 12mm thick while the other is 10mm (I could >>>> easily be wrong on these measurements, but they're close). You'd think >>>> the >>>> thicker one would work better, but at least in my case, the solution to >>>> the >>>> oil leak was to go with the thinner one, which can be recessed lightly >>>> into >>>> its home. No more leaks. >>>> >>>> Karl Wolz >>>> >>>> |-----Original Message----- >>>> |From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of >>>> |Ry >>>> |Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 2:16 PM >>>> |To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>>> |Subject: Re: Oil leak since rebuilt 2.1l installed >>>> | >>>> |yes, i meant to mention the smell test as well. the mt-90 i used was >>>> |rather >>>> |red in color also. >>>> | >>>> |Will try the crankshaft jerk/pull when i get home after things cool >>>> off >>>> and >>>> |report back. >>>> | >>>> | >>>> |-Ry >>>> | >>>> | >>>> |On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans< >>>> |scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote: >>>> | >>>> |> hi Ry, >>>> |> just for funzies... >>>> |> grab the crankshaft pulley and try to push it in and out........ >>>> ..engine >>>> |> off of course ( and no one sitting in the driver's seat either ) >>>> |> checking for end-play. >>>> |> there shouldn't be any easily detectibible end-play. >>>> |> >>>> |> not likely that it'll move excessively, but it's a simple test that >>>> by >>>> |> remote chance could reveal something. >>>> |> >>>> |> usually you can tell gear oil from engine oil by smell. >>>> |> the Redline MT-90 gear oil I'm using lately seems engine oil >>>> colored, >>>> |more >>>> |> or less. >>>> |> >>>> |> >>>> |> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> |> *From:* Ry<rylincoln@gmail.com> >>>> |> *To:* Scott Daniel - Turbovans<scottdaniel@turbovans.com> >>>> |> *Cc:* vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com >>>> |> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:23 PM >>>> |> *Subject:* Re: Re: Oil leak since rebuilt 2.1l installed >>>> |> >>>> |> Thanks for the free brain cycle time :) >>>> |> >>>> |> The reason I *think *I know it's not transmission oil is color, i >>>> have >>>> |> that redline synthetic and that as you probably know, has a >>>> definitive >>>> |color >>>> |> to it. >>>> |> >>>> |> I'll drop the trans next time i have a 4 day weekend to spare and >>>> some >>>> |> spare parts. >>>> |> >>>> |> flywheel was preinstalled, i certainly hope it was properly >>>> installed >>>> but >>>> |I >>>> |> should check it. i've never done a rear main seal job. I've done >>>> seals >>>> |> when changing wheel bearings. >>>> |> >>>> |> >>>> |> carry on, >>>> |> >>>> |> -Ry >>>> |> >>>> |> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans< >>>> |> scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote: >>>> |> >>>> |>> hi, >>>> |>> it was clear you were talking about the engine-transmission >>>> junction >>>> |area. >>>> |>> >>>> |>> yeah, there shouldn't be a drop there with a fresh engine. >>>> |>> and if you're sure it's engine oil.. .. Just because trans is >>>> rebuilt >>>> |>> that doesn't mean 'for sure' it can't leak some there . >>>> |>> In my brain I never think 'oh that's new, can't be that' .. >>>> |>> I think the opposite ...that was just worked on ....the problem >>>> could >>>> be >>>> |>> there . >>>> |>> I always go for the most recent work when there's an issue ...I >>>> often >>>> |find >>>> |>> 'the issue' there. >>>> |>> >>>> |>> things that come to mind if it's engine oil - >>>> |>> rear main oil seal of course. >>>> |>> anything to do with end play of the crankshaft and that whole >>>> end-play >>>> |>> shim/rear main seal area. >>>> |>> >>>> |>> oh ...here's one..........I've seen this one ...no lock-tite on >>>> the >>>> |>> flywheel bolts ....oil will gradually migrate up the threads of >>>> the >>>> |flywheel >>>> |>> bolts if there is not a sealant or lock-tite on the bolt threads. >>>> They >>>> |>> should always bet lock-tited in of course. >>>> |>> there's an o-ring on the crankshaft side of the flywheel...that's >>>> gotta >>>> |be >>>> |>> there. >>>> |>> >>>> |>> anything to do with crankcase pressure and not venting/relieving >>>> |pressure >>>> |>> properly. >>>> |>> Waterboxers seldom have that problem ...but the oil tower ...there >>>> are >>>> |>> moving parts in there... >>>> |>> spring and some other part ...if that was all clogged up , could >>>> be >>>> a >>>> |>> factor. >>>> |>> >>>> |>> doubt it's the oil itself, but consider that....brand, grade, and >>>> |>> viscosity. >>>> |>> >>>> |>> but if the engine is new ... >>>> |>> it sure shouldn't do that. If it did that in a year say ...mabye >>>> ok, >>>> |>> but new.....shouldn't be an oil drop there. >>>> |>> it should be either ... a seal issue, or what the seal seals >>>> against >>>> |>> .....or breather/crankcase pressure issue. ...somewhere in there. >>>> Even >>>> |>> excessive main bearing oil clearnce could cause it. Or cheap rear >>>> main >>>> |>> seal. The good ones are all red, or have a red lip where they >>>> actually >>>> |do >>>> |>> the sealing ...the all black ones are not so hot, but they should >>>> work >>>> |find >>>> |>> for a while . >>>> |>> If it was mine, I'd be taking the trans or engine out to look at >>>> things >>>> |>> very carefully, much as one hates to do that over one small drop. >>>> |>> >>>> |>> Scott >>>> |>> www.turbovans.com >>>> |>> >>>> |>> >>>> |>> >>>> |>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ry"<rylincoln@GMAIL.COM> >>>> |>> To:<vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> >>>> |>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:59 AM >>>> |>> Subject: Re: Oil leak since rebuilt 2.1l installed >>>> |>> >>>> |>> >>>> |>> >>>> |>> when i say rear of engine i mean where it mates up with the >>>> |transmission, >>>> |>>> oil pump is on the "front" of the engine. sorry for the >>>> confusion, >>>> I >>>> |>>> still >>>> |>>> think of the engine seperate from the van so i don't get confused >>>> on >>>> |>>> front >>>> |>>> and rear designation. >>>> |>>> >>>> |>>> Definitely not transmission oil, i have a rebuilt trans too, >>>> replaced >>>> |at >>>> |>>> same time as engine. >>>> |>>> >>>> |>>> No oil on the engine lid, only on the bottom of the engine where >>>> |>>> transmission and engine meet at the center of the case. >>>> |>>> >>>> |>>> I'm not calling out the rebuilder on the list, that would be poor >>>> form, >>>> |>>> but >>>> |>>> I didn't rebuild it, was professional rebuild. >>>> |>>> >>>> |>>> this is the area where it drips once or twice when stopped. >>>> |>>> >>>> |>>> >>>> | >>>> >>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/3L4SAvf39FK2iLzL_frNBw?feat=directlink >>>> |>>> >>>> |>>> -Ry >>>> |>>> >>>> |>>> >>>> |>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans< >>>> |>>> scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote: >>>> |>>> >>>> |>>> 'carry on' ...lol. >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>>>> make sure it's not transmission oil ...could be. >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>>>> if it is engine oil... >>>> |>>>> no, should not have a slow leak or any drips there. >>>> |>>>> I'd say the only acceptable level of leak there would be one >>>> drop >>>> of >>>> |oil >>>> |>>>> sitting on the engine ..at the most ...and no drops on the >>>> ground >>>> ... >>>> |>>>> shouldn't have that with a new engine. >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ry"<rylincoln@GMAIL.COM> >>>> |>>>> To:<vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> >>>> |>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:59 AM >>>> |>>>> Subject: Oil leak since rebuilt 2.1l installed >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>>>> So, I'm not terribly worried about this but am interested in >>>> the >>>> |>>>> opinions >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>>>>> of >>>> |>>>>> the hive mind here. I installed a rebuilt 2.1l engine ~3,500 >>>> miles >>>> |>>>>> ago. >>>> |>>>>> Pretty much since the beginning there has been a slow oil leak >>>> from >>>> |the >>>> |>>>>> rear >>>> |>>>>> of the engine. I assume it's the rear main seal(what else is >>>> back >>>> |>>>>> there? >>>> |>>>>> It's not enough to warrant needing to add oil between oil >>>> change >>>> |>>>>> intervals, >>>> |>>>>> there are maybe 1 or 2 drops of oil on the ground when parked >>>> for >>>> |>>>>> several >>>> |>>>>> hours. >>>> |>>>>> >>>> |>>>>> Oh no woah as me, I know.... this is NOT a major problem, but I >>>> sure >>>> |>>>>> would >>>> |>>>>> like to have NO oil leaks, is this unreasonable? Do many >>>> people >>>> have >>>> |>>>>> little >>>> |>>>>> leaks they just ignore? >>>> |>>>>> >>>> |>>>>> I reckon I'll just live with it for now. I have an oil >>>> pressure >>>> |gauge >>>> |>>>>> and >>>> |>>>>> oil temp gauge along with an external oil cooler so I should >>>> get >>>> |warned >>>> |>>>>> quickly of any lubrication troubles. >>>> |>>>>> >>>> |>>>>> carry on, >>>> |>>>>> -Ry >>>> |>>>>> >>>> |>>>>> >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>>>> >>>> |>> >>>> |> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>


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