Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 14:03:02 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Flywheel Dowel Pins
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reply-type=response
hi.
where to start.....?
can you imagine the flywheel and pressure plate spinning around at 5,000 rpm
??
It's critical is it be reasonably well balanced .
and to achieve that the pressure plate has to be loacted on the flyweel
precisely with two main factors in mind ..
one is rotational relationship between pressure plate and flywheel.
the pressure plate only fits onto the pins one way ...so as long as the pins
are there ....the rotational relationship is retained - just seems 'right'to
me. Originally they may have been balanced together as a unit. As the
years and cluches go by ....each pressure plate is balanced to be 'close
enough' to the original balance of the whole assembly, is my guess.
( I just looked at two Sachs pressure plates ...they have a little round
thing pressed into them on the outer edge - that flat part where the 6 bolts
go ...that is a balancing weight added there. )
I'm very nutty on workmanship.........
ALL CARS locate their pressure plates only 'one way' on the flywheel..
well, all good cars. Like say Honda's. Perhaps american junk like old Ford
pick up trucks might not ..
but well made cars do.
and the other is centering. The fit on the 6 bolts is a bit sloppy.
I have taken a few vanagon clutches apart that didn't have to locating pins
...
I don't remember that there was a real problem ..
I just know for myself, VW built it that way, they did it for a reason,
it's a critical part under huge forces at times...
I can only put something together like that correctly ..
except in an just-get-home emergency perhaps.
the pins are about precise location of a heavy part on the flywheel that
spins up to 5,000 rpm ..
if the question is, can it run without those pins.... ..yes it can.
if the question is, is it good for my vanangon to run without those locating
pins ...no it's not.
and I gotta say ..
if there was ever a part on vanagons I see put together without enough
lubrication on parts that move ...it's the clucth on vanagons.
Just took one apart...and this is typical...
it was all dry and rusty where the Throw Out Bearing slides on the guide
tube.
the throw out bearing was just kinda tired and rusty looking
the felt seal for the pilot bearing was not there, and the metal ring to
hold that felt seal in place was not there.
there were old rollers from the previous pilot bearing in the hole in the
crankshaft behind the pilot bearing ....
it all adds up. Do really careful work and it pays off. Any parts that
move relative to each other usually need some lube there. . like say, how
the crossshaft pivots in the bell housing ..
I work those over with a good synthetic spray grease until the crosshaft
pivots very smoothly. etc.
It all adds up ...the more meticulous workmanship you do, the smoother it
works, and the longer it lasts.
I always change the clutch hydrualic fluid any time I work on a clutch too.
btw.
I would want those pins in there ..they are not like say, the small screws
that hold the rear brake drum on ..those are just to keep the drum from
falling off when you take a wheel off, they don't locate a turning thing
precisely...the drum centers on the flange for that ..
but on the flywheel, those pins provide precise lacation of a critical part
on something that spins at pretty high rpm with a lot of
mass.............those pins just belong there.
what else can I say !
:-)
Scott
turbovans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay lefstein" <jleftbrane@GMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: Flywheel Dowel Pins
> as far as i know these are just for aliging the PP during
> installation, once it's tight it shouldn't matter???
> On 2-Jul-10, at 1:12 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
>
>> check with an auto parts store,
>> a hardware store,
>> or machine shops.
>>
>> roll pins are fairly generic, usually made of high-carbon springy
>> steel.
>>
>> I'm looking at 3 in a cracked waterboxer flywheel I have ..
>> where the split is down the side of the roll pins is...it's zigzaggy
>> there..
>> normal roll pins are just straight there.
>>
>> even if you find a pin or smooth bolt shank of just the right
>> diameter ..
>> that's a good press fit, that could work. Needs to be a good tight
>> fit
>> though.
>>
>> if you really want 'the' right part, I could see about getting these
>> removed
>> from this cracked flywheel I have and sell them to you.
>> Scott
>> www.turbovans.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kurt Grotz" <kgrotz@CRAFTECH.COM>
>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 12:44 PM
>> Subject: Flywheel Dowel Pins
>>
>>
>>> My dowels are missing - and I need 3. Thinking of fabricating
>>> something.
>>> Do I need a special steel? Anyone done this before?
>>>
>>> Kurt A. Grotz
>>> www.themediastation.com
>>> 610-565-2530
>>> 484-477-2909
>>> "My mind thinks of way too many things to have an attention deficit"
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Daryl Christensen [mailto:daryl@aatransaxle.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 12:27 AM
>>> To: 'Kurt Grotz'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>> Subject: RE: More Clutch - part 4 or is it 5
>>>
>>> Don't be afraid of the GL5 trans oils.. Any name brand synthetic
>>> GL5 75/90
>>> or so will be fine. 20 yrs ago, the GL4 was the only good oil, but
>>> since
>>> then the additive packages of most all modern oils are ok for the
>>> brass
>>> synchro's...
>>>
>>> And the place that resurfaced the flywheel took the dowels out and
>>> should
>>> have them there still..you hope Daryl of AA Transaxle 425-788-4070
>>> "On the
>>> cutting edge of Old technology"
>>> 86 Syncro Westy with a Zetec in the trunk
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>> Behalf Of
>>> Kurt Grotz
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 7:32 PM
>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>> Subject: More Clutch - part 4 or is it 5
>>>
>>> So close! My nephew and I almost had that bad boy back in this
>>> afternoon.
>>> After reading the great on-line instructions and Boston Bobs video
>>> we were
>>> armed for reassembly bear. I even decided to get the flywheel
>>> machined!
>>> Well it was $55 not the oft mentioned 30, but it didn't break me.
>>> Well
>>> worth it to see that thing all pretty - and to see the really cool
>>> machine
>>> shop, complete with Pre 80's Westy But alas - the sticking points.
>>>
>>> 1. What gear oil? Again an issue, but I settled on NAPA brand GL-5.
>>> There were not other options. Pep Boys only had the new stuff
>>> called hypo
>>> something and if I was afriad of GL-5 this really had my hackles.
>>> So
>>> NAPA
>>> it is until I hear of a product and location better.
>>>
>>> 2. The thrush washer - that is a little hairy keeping that assembly
>>> together while putting in the oil seal. But it all went eventually
>>> with
>>> patience.
>>>
>>> 3. Flywheel - perfect fit.....dulp....what about the felt
>>> washer? I
>>> have
>>> 3 by this point with all the bearings ect I am collecting. And
>>> like the
>>> man
>>> said....they are all too big. And I even have one thing most
>>> apparently
>>> don't. The flywheel spacer to hold washer in place. If it
>>> fit. So I
>>> improvised. I cut it and took out a tiny segment and it fit like a
>>> glove.
>>> I think the 80 lbs tork on the bolts should hold it in place
>>> against the
>>> bearing. Any thoughts? Should I pull it and go feltless?
>>> There was
>>> no
>>> felt when I took it our originally.
>>>
>>> Also - flywheel issue - do I need locktight? Or is the 80 lbs good
>>> enought.
>>>
>>> 4. Ok we were started putting clutch on and I noticed - there are no
>>> dowels
>>> on the flywheel. I noticed one when I took it off. I noticed
>>> that if
>>> you
>>> don't have them the clutch would be unstable. Maybe that is what
>>> happened
>>> in the first place.
>>>
>>> So now I need to find the dowels. Hopefully a vendor will have
>>> them - but
>>> it looks like another lost weekend without the van.
>>>
>>> Questions:
>>>
>>> 1. Where does one find the little steel disk dowels?
>>> 2. Do I need locktight on flywheel bolts and clutch bolts?
>>> 3. Good source for good GL5 oil?
>>>
>>> I think that should cover it. Boy this is tedious
>>>
>>> Thanks as always.
>>>
>>> Falling Asleep
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kurt A. Grotz
>>>
>>> www.themediastation.com
>>>
>>> 610-565-2530
>>>
>>> 484-477-2909
>>>
>>> "My mind thinks of way too many things to have an attention deficit"
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