Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:30:49 -0700
Reply-To: Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Flywheel Dowel Pins
In-Reply-To: <0b1401cb1bbc$4fbf4d90$6401a8c0@PROSPERITY>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Good answer Scott! ;)
On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <
scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> hi.
> where to start.....?
> can you imagine the flywheel and pressure plate spinning around at 5,000
> rpm
> ??
>
> It's critical is it be reasonably well balanced .
> and to achieve that the pressure plate has to be loacted on the flyweel
> precisely with two main factors in mind ..
> one is rotational relationship between pressure plate and flywheel.
> the pressure plate only fits onto the pins one way ...so as long as the
> pins
> are there ....the rotational relationship is retained - just seems
> 'right'to
> me. Originally they may have been balanced together as a unit. As the
> years and cluches go by ....each pressure plate is balanced to be 'close
> enough' to the original balance of the whole assembly, is my guess.
> ( I just looked at two Sachs pressure plates ...they have a little round
> thing pressed into them on the outer edge - that flat part where the 6
> bolts
> go ...that is a balancing weight added there. )
>
> I'm very nutty on workmanship.........
> ALL CARS locate their pressure plates only 'one way' on the flywheel..
> well, all good cars. Like say Honda's. Perhaps american junk like old Ford
> pick up trucks might not ..
> but well made cars do.
>
> and the other is centering. The fit on the 6 bolts is a bit sloppy.
> I have taken a few vanagon clutches apart that didn't have to locating pins
> ...
> I don't remember that there was a real problem ..
> I just know for myself, VW built it that way, they did it for a reason,
> it's a critical part under huge forces at times...
> I can only put something together like that correctly ..
> except in an just-get-home emergency perhaps.
>
> the pins are about precise location of a heavy part on the flywheel that
> spins up to 5,000 rpm ..
>
> if the question is, can it run without those pins.... ..yes it can.
> if the question is, is it good for my vanangon to run without those
> locating
> pins ...no it's not.
>
> and I gotta say ..
> if there was ever a part on vanagons I see put together without enough
> lubrication on parts that move ...it's the clucth on vanagons.
>
> Just took one apart...and this is typical...
> it was all dry and rusty where the Throw Out Bearing slides on the guide
> tube.
> the throw out bearing was just kinda tired and rusty looking
> the felt seal for the pilot bearing was not there, and the metal ring to
> hold that felt seal in place was not there.
> there were old rollers from the previous pilot bearing in the hole in the
> crankshaft behind the pilot bearing ....
> it all adds up. Do really careful work and it pays off. Any parts that
> move relative to each other usually need some lube there. . like say, how
> the crossshaft pivots in the bell housing ..
> I work those over with a good synthetic spray grease until the crosshaft
> pivots very smoothly. etc.
> It all adds up ...the more meticulous workmanship you do, the smoother it
> works, and the longer it lasts.
> I always change the clutch hydrualic fluid any time I work on a clutch too.
> btw.
>
> I would want those pins in there ..they are not like say, the small screws
> that hold the rear brake drum on ..those are just to keep the drum from
> falling off when you take a wheel off, they don't locate a turning thing
> precisely...the drum centers on the flange for that ..
> but on the flywheel, those pins provide precise lacation of a critical part
> on something that spins at pretty high rpm with a lot of
> mass.............those pins just belong there.
>
> what else can I say !
> :-)
> Scott
> turbovans
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jay lefstein" <jleftbrane@GMAIL.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 12:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Flywheel Dowel Pins
>
>
> as far as i know these are just for aliging the PP during
>> installation, once it's tight it shouldn't matter???
>> On 2-Jul-10, at 1:12 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
>>
>> check with an auto parts store,
>>> a hardware store,
>>> or machine shops.
>>>
>>> roll pins are fairly generic, usually made of high-carbon springy
>>> steel.
>>>
>>> I'm looking at 3 in a cracked waterboxer flywheel I have ..
>>> where the split is down the side of the roll pins is...it's zigzaggy
>>> there..
>>> normal roll pins are just straight there.
>>>
>>> even if you find a pin or smooth bolt shank of just the right
>>> diameter ..
>>> that's a good press fit, that could work. Needs to be a good tight
>>> fit
>>> though.
>>>
>>> if you really want 'the' right part, I could see about getting these
>>> removed
>>> from this cracked flywheel I have and sell them to you.
>>> Scott
>>> www.turbovans.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kurt Grotz" <kgrotz@CRAFTECH.COM>
>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 12:44 PM
>>> Subject: Flywheel Dowel Pins
>>>
>>>
>>> My dowels are missing - and I need 3. Thinking of fabricating
>>>> something.
>>>> Do I need a special steel? Anyone done this before?
>>>>
>>>> Kurt A. Grotz
>>>> www.themediastation.com
>>>> 610-565-2530
>>>> 484-477-2909
>>>> "My mind thinks of way too many things to have an attention deficit"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Daryl Christensen [mailto:daryl@aatransaxle.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 12:27 AM
>>>> To: 'Kurt Grotz'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>> Subject: RE: More Clutch - part 4 or is it 5
>>>>
>>>> Don't be afraid of the GL5 trans oils.. Any name brand synthetic
>>>> GL5 75/90
>>>> or so will be fine. 20 yrs ago, the GL4 was the only good oil, but
>>>> since
>>>> then the additive packages of most all modern oils are ok for the
>>>> brass
>>>> synchro's...
>>>>
>>>> And the place that resurfaced the flywheel took the dowels out and
>>>> should
>>>> have them there still..you hope Daryl of AA Transaxle 425-788-4070
>>>> "On the
>>>> cutting edge of Old technology"
>>>> 86 Syncro Westy with a Zetec in the trunk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of
>>>> Kurt Grotz
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 7:32 PM
>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>> Subject: More Clutch - part 4 or is it 5
>>>>
>>>> So close! My nephew and I almost had that bad boy back in this
>>>> afternoon.
>>>> After reading the great on-line instructions and Boston Bobs video
>>>> we were
>>>> armed for reassembly bear. I even decided to get the flywheel
>>>> machined!
>>>> Well it was $55 not the oft mentioned 30, but it didn't break me.
>>>> Well
>>>> worth it to see that thing all pretty - and to see the really cool
>>>> machine
>>>> shop, complete with Pre 80's Westy But alas - the sticking points.
>>>>
>>>> 1. What gear oil? Again an issue, but I settled on NAPA brand GL-5.
>>>> There were not other options. Pep Boys only had the new stuff
>>>> called hypo
>>>> something and if I was afriad of GL-5 this really had my hackles.
>>>> So
>>>> NAPA
>>>> it is until I hear of a product and location better.
>>>>
>>>> 2. The thrush washer - that is a little hairy keeping that assembly
>>>> together while putting in the oil seal. But it all went eventually
>>>> with
>>>> patience.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Flywheel - perfect fit.....dulp....what about the felt
>>>> washer? I
>>>> have
>>>> 3 by this point with all the bearings ect I am collecting. And
>>>> like the
>>>> man
>>>> said....they are all too big. And I even have one thing most
>>>> apparently
>>>> don't. The flywheel spacer to hold washer in place. If it
>>>> fit. So I
>>>> improvised. I cut it and took out a tiny segment and it fit like a
>>>> glove.
>>>> I think the 80 lbs tork on the bolts should hold it in place
>>>> against the
>>>> bearing. Any thoughts? Should I pull it and go feltless?
>>>> There was
>>>> no
>>>> felt when I took it our originally.
>>>>
>>>> Also - flywheel issue - do I need locktight? Or is the 80 lbs good
>>>> enought.
>>>>
>>>> 4. Ok we were started putting clutch on and I noticed - there are no
>>>> dowels
>>>> on the flywheel. I noticed one when I took it off. I noticed
>>>> that if
>>>> you
>>>> don't have them the clutch would be unstable. Maybe that is what
>>>> happened
>>>> in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> So now I need to find the dowels. Hopefully a vendor will have
>>>> them - but
>>>> it looks like another lost weekend without the van.
>>>>
>>>> Questions:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Where does one find the little steel disk dowels?
>>>> 2. Do I need locktight on flywheel bolts and clutch bolts?
>>>> 3. Good source for good GL5 oil?
>>>>
>>>> I think that should cover it. Boy this is tedious
>>>>
>>>> Thanks as always.
>>>>
>>>> Falling Asleep
>>>>
>>>> Kurt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kurt A. Grotz
>>>>
>>>> www.themediastation.com
>>>>
>>>> 610-565-2530
>>>>
>>>> 484-477-2909
>>>>
>>>> "My mind thinks of way too many things to have an attention deficit"
>>>>
>>>
--
Jake
1984 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX 'The Grey Van'
1986 Westy Weekender/2.5 SOHC Suby 'Dixie'
Crescent Beach, BC
www.thebassspa.com
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
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