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Date:         Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:44:59 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      about this small amount of air at the top of the radiator
Comments: To: Tom Buese <tombuese@COMCAST.NET>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=response

just wanted to say that I think being even slightly obsessive about 'some air' at the top of the radiator is ......unnessary.

I think there will always be a bit of air at the very top of the radiator, more or less. it's above the cooling fins so doesn't matter anyway.

IF ..however, there is an actual problem ..like an air leak in, or exhaust gases getting into the cooling system at head/head gasket .. sure ... then one might need to or be aware of air needing to be bleed out of the top of the radiator..

but 'normally' ....if everything else is working like it should... it's not necccessry to bleed that air out. IF there is not some other problem.

Sometimes I change entire engines and the only 'bleeding' I do is top of the coolant in the pressure bottle every warm up-cool down cycle .....for a few days. Once that's done, and everything else is good, t-stat, head gaksets, proper coolant mixture , working rad fan , good heater performance and heater controls working .. they are just fine , even without officially bleeding at the radiator.

granted, for that last 2 % of perfection ...sure it IS better that it's officially bled at the radiator screw ..but it's not cricital and not absolutely necessary.

there is btw .. a nice little bleed valve set up ....I get them from Kennedy .. then you have a nice valve with tube coming off it so you don't have to fiddle with that bleed screw gettting it back in while coolant is coming out etc.

here is a fine trick too... very impressed when I read this ..one guy just loosens his radiator bleed screw so it leaks there a bit, then he drives around for a while , like 5 or 10 minutes in town .. that'll push out any air or air-coolant mix just fine. Thought that was very clever.

and if there is need for lots of bleeding ... there's something wrong. I had one wbxr van of mine ..you could drive 35 minuues at 60 mph, and it would unbleed itself enough to start overheating. Stop, let cool down a little, fill coolant , bleed some at the radiator .. fine again for another 35 minutes of driving, then repeat. did that like a dozen times to get the van to where I could do the head gaskets.. if you have seen many of those green o-rings at the top of the barrel...( talking waterboxer, not inline four gas or diesel of course ) those are suppossed to keep cooalnt away from the metal rings. and the metal rings on top of the barrels keep the combustion gases in the combustion chamber, theoretically. the green o-rings get hard and brittle and 'stuck' in only a few years ...like 5 years. Eventually, and perhaps with coolant not being changed much ... that delicate little interface there .. deteriorates ...and you can start getting combustion gases into the cooling system ... 'automatic unbleeding' .. that you have to fix or make up for with 'real bleeding' .. but if there are no air leaks in, not head gasket combustion leaks, and no external coolant leaks, and it's not consuming coolant into the cylinders .. then they hardly need bleeding really .. or 'just once' .. or the 'top up every warm up/cool down cycle for a while' method.

just wanted to say .. you can have a perfectly working cooling system in every way, and find some air at the top of the radiator if go looking for it. and it's natural that there will be a small space of air there anyway. And that it doesn't hurt anything.

the coolant mixture I do great with is .. for conventional anti-frz ...Prestone Extended life mixed 50/50 with water, and some machinist's cutting oil, a water soluble oil that is a great water pump lube and rust inhibitor, added... make sure t-stat makes it run at 180 F or so proper temp, winter and summer ...

with a good water pump .and cooling system parts in good servciable order .. that'll work just fine for years and years.

I have used VW blue coolant ..don't think it's really neccessary. I use Dexcool sometimes .....ran one mercedes engine uphill on a hot day pulling a vanagon until vapor lock made the poor old Benz flame out, with coolant temp needle pegged . Let it all cool down, got fuel back to liquid form .. not one parot of the cooling system was harmed or any coolant lost. Mighty impressive coolant performance.

changing it .. once a year would not be too often. you never get *all* the old coolant out. if you filled , flushed and drained it with pure water a few times you would of course.. but just drain and re-fill ....I's sure a good 30 % of the Old Yucky stays in there.

it is 'the fluids' ...it is the fluids that protect the metal and plastic parts in all systems that need fluids ...oil, coolant, PS atf, brake fluid etc.. it's the fluids that keep the parts from touching each other sometimes .. its' the fluids that carry heat and dirt away .. it's the fluids ... and fluids deteroate .. if you religeiously changed all the fluids in a vanagon ... like really really extra often, the parts those fluids protect almost would not wear out ever.

and if ever there was a system that like to corrode and deterioate ..it's the cooling system .. aluminum corrodes 'so nicely' if not protected by a good anti-frz mixture .. I've seen aluminum cooling system parts rotted right through ...just from never changing the coolant. and you almost can not do that too often on these old babies.

I know changing a fluid is not as exciting as replacing a totally blown out and failed part.. but it's easier and cheaper ! it's the fluids baby.......and they deteriorate on a steady constant basis, and i'ts not even that expensive to buy good fluids for our fine machines.

you know the old thing ..'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' .. that's been changed .. 'if it ain't broke, change the fluid to it."

no kidding, I can pump out a qt of ATF from a power steering system, put in one qt of Royal Purple ATF .. and feel the increased smoothness in the PS system.. and that's not even cleaning and flushing, that's just taking out some Old Yucky and putting in some fresh good stuff .

that's a another thing ...the way people often 'justify' not doing anything is to thing it needs to be 'fully and totally flushed and cleaned, then new stuff put in' .. granted that is the right and better way, and yet, just 'adding some fresh' is about 70 % better than doing nothing.

and very often people end up doing nothing, because they are waiting to find time to 'do it all' .. so in the meantime things just keep deteriorating. There is something to be said for incremental improveents in many small areas on a braod front ...that's how I make many vans happerier from one end to another .. a little here, a little there, and it all adds up. you know ...it IS a lot of work to clean a bunch of old moldy tree gunge off the roof of a vanagon .. then polish and treat that whole roof with a really high quailty pro grade cleaner/wax...( Rejuvenator ..fantastic stuff ) ..it IS a lot of work, done all at once..

but a 2 X 2 foot section at a time now and then, when you get tired of doing other stuff.. that's easy ....do that several times ..and pretty soon nearly the whole roof is done .. then you just finish the last bit, and it's so rewarding, and it didn't even feel like a big task or job the whole time .

scott www.turbovans.com

Scott www.turbovans.com


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