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Date:         Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:02:27 -0400
Reply-To:     craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: VERBOSE: fuel pump, ethanol, cavitation
Comments: To: Mike <mbucchino@charter.net>
In-Reply-To:  <DC70A17E77DF48478CAEAA85C27B4C23@Mikelaptop1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

You can really flush it with anything. Heck, you could flush it with gasoline (Just running the pump in reverse, with a clean tank of gas.) The key safety thing here is to keep sparks down. So, rig up a simple wire jump set with some spare wire. Spade connectors on the ends of two wires, a switch midway between one of them, and long enough to safely attach to a battery so that the sparks are relatively far from the source of combustable gasses. Then of course, do this in the middle of a driveway or similar well ventelated area, fire extinguisher ready (Safety First!). The switch helps reduce sparks as well. Throw some hose on one end or the other. Immerse the end of the hose in the solvent of choice. Start the pump, pumping into another container. Repeat. For storage, make sure you shake the living snot out of the thing. Get every last little drop out. Then LABEL your known good fuel pumps. Seriously, I am finding out that plenty of people have stacks of pumps in unknown condition. If they come off running cars, just grab a sharpie and mark it with something like "Known to run. Good?", or "Known Good", or even "?" if you really don't know. A sharpie, maybe even some blue tape, goes a long way here.

One other thing to keep in mind Mike is to consider replacing the ground cable from the starter to the body. It's a short little thing. These have been known to gain resistance and that (believe it or not) can seemingly cause some noisy fuel pump issues all by itsself. Otherwise, fresh filters, CHECK YOUR HOSES (You've replaced them right!?), and fresh gas (Maybe with a fuel additive of your choice just to get things back into suspension/dissolved), and you should be good to go.

Carry a spare fuel pump. You never know when a random person will say they need one! : ) It was good meeting you yesterday Mike, as well as everyone else I had the pleasure to meet at the Terryville VW show, and everyone else I had the pleasure to meet throughout my summer out here on the east coast.

-Craig Cowan '85GL turned WESTY BOSTIG in the back '87 SUNROOF Syncro

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Mike <mbucchino@charter.net> wrote:

> It may be fine in all other respects, and still be cavitating or > restricted enough to be quite noisy. > I just removed my pump for cleaning and hose/clamp replacements (thanks > for the replacement pump, Craig C!), and when I shook out the remaining > fuel > into a rag, I couldn't believe the amount of crap caught in the pump's > internal pre-filter screen. I never even knew that it had a screen in the > large inlet side, but it makes sense. It's fairly fine, and only very > small > particles will pass thru to get caught in the filter, which is after the > pump. The pre-filter pump was eliminated by VW, possibly due to noisy pump > operation once restricted due to particles. > You can run it polarity-reversed to flush it out backwards through a rag > into a bucket. Craig told me (at the Terryville show today!) that he uses > denatured alcohol for this, so it leaves things clean and dry for storage > of > a spare pump. It's also less explosive than gasoline! > > Mike B. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "mordo" <helmut.blong@GMAIL.COM> > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 1:39 PM > > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > Subject: VERBOSE: fuel pump, ethanol, cavitation > > > I'd be willing to accept that, Jake except that it does not exhibit the >> other symptoms of being choked. Like I said, it doesn't bog down when you >> mash the pedal. Previously when my tank was expelling crud, I would lose >> power when I accelerated up hill or to pass. >> >> I'm certainly going to pull the tank when I empty it. I have an original >> spare that is good shape. >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Jake de Villiers < >> crescentbeachguitar@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> It sounds like your tank outlet is restricted. That 'laminate trimmer' >>> noise only comes from lack of volume at the inlet side of the pump. >>> >>> Do as Scott suggests and run your pump from a hose into a gas can to see >>> if >>> that makes a difference. >>> >>> If the noise goes away, its time to replace the gas tank. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 7:38 AM, mordo <helmut.blong@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> O, List, >>>> >>>> I've been reading a lot of the discussion both here and on the Samba >>>> about >>>> fuel pump cavitation since I had a discouraging failure en route to the >>>> Outer Banks Saturday a week ago. I'd appreciate the collective wisdom of >>>> the >>>> list on this incident. >>>> >>>> Van is generally running very well tho' I was a bit apprehensive of my >>>> instrument cluster after tearing the foil thus worried that any warning >>>> signs won't be reported. So, traffic from Springfield, VA on 95S was >>>> hateful >>>> as usual and that day it was dreadful all the way to 295 interchange >>>> near >>>> Richmond. Dodged the back up on 64E by going down to 460E, wade through >>>> Norfolk area and on to NC 168/158 and am shortly mired in a hellish, 20 >>>> mile >>>> debacle of too many damned vehicles all going to the same place. And, >>>> it's >>>> hot, hot, hot, approximately 99F "real feel" that day and the rad fan is >>>> cycling on and off regularly and occasionally up to high speed (that's a >>>> surprising sound). Stop and go, creeping, crawling with the AC on. About >>>> four miles before the bridge over the Currituck Sound, I hear what I >>>> interpret is a wheezing sound from the cooling system and the engine >>>> sputters to a stop. We pull over onto a grassy verge and curse the gods >>>> for >>>> their cruelty. I try starting again and it kicks over, runs momentarily >>>> and >>>> the sputters to a stop again. Wheezing sound was present again. >>>> >>>> After hassling with an ESL support operator at my motor club, I get in >>>> to >>>> tell the operator the VIN. I crank it over again just for kicks and it >>>> starts and runs normally. So, I say, "Never mind, it's running again. >>>> I'll >>>> call if I need a tow." We drove about 200 yards and kaput. Try to start >>>> again and it sputters and coughs and kaput. And then the starter won't >>>> crank >>>> over. Wheezing sound again. After a long, hot ride in the tow truck cab >>>> (three people plus driver) we are at our destination and I ignore the >>>> van >>>> in >>>> favor of several anodyne adult beverages. >>>> >>>> Next day, I start it and run it and discern that the wheezing is a >>>> noisy, >>>> whining fuel pump. It was an aftermarket pump, about three years old so >>>> I'm >>>> willing to believe that it is failing. So, I order a replacement from >>>> BusDepot. Replace it and the filter. The old filter bled rusty-looking >>>> fuel."Hrmmm," says I. Starts rough but eventually runs fine. On the way >>>> back >>>> to Baltimore, I start to get the whining fuel pump sound again and >>>> occasionally, idling at stop lights, the engine quits. Restarts normally >>>> and >>>> runs well at high speed, pulls strong all the way to Baltimore. So, to >>>> summarize: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. Hot ambient temps >>>> 2. fill up in southern Virginia with 10% ethanol fuel >>>> 3. fine rust in fuel filter before replacement >>>> 4. new Bosch pump still have whining sound >>>> 5. Engine runs well under load, acceleration normal >>>> 6. Sputters at hot idle and sometimes quits >>>> 7. cleaned the tank three or four years ago >>>> >>>> >>>> I have read of the theory that ethanol-blended gasoline is responsible >>>> for >>>> cavitation, its specific gravity being lower than straight gasoline. >>>> I've >>>> read the theory that the generic Bosch pump is too fast for gasohol and >>>> that >>>> a resistor in line on the pump is the answer. I have experienced the >>>> effects >>>> of cruddy fuel choking the fuel pump and my experience was inconsistent >>>> with >>>> previous misadventures. That usually presented as choking and losing >>>> power >>>> under load. >>>> >>>> What do you all think is the most likely culprit? I was under the >>>> impression >>>> that most fuel around the mid Atlantic was 10% ethanol but perhaps I am >>>> mistaken. I am suspicious of my fuel pressure regulator - haven't tested >>>> fuel pressure in a couple of years. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> -- >>>> mordo >>>> 1990 Carat >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jake >>> >>> 1984 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX 'The Grey Van' >>> 1986 Westy Weekender/2.5 SOHC Suby 'Dixie' >>> >>> Crescent Beach, BC >>> >>> www.thebassspa.com >>> www.crescentbeachguitar.com >>> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27 >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> mordo >> 1990 Carat >> >> >> >> -- >> mordo >> 1990 Carat >> >


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