Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:13:04 -0400
Reply-To: mordo <helmut.blong@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: mordo <helmut.blong@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: VERBOSE: fuel pump, ethanol, cavitation
In-Reply-To: <DC70A17E77DF48478CAEAA85C27B4C23@Mikelaptop1>
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I have had the same experience about four years ago, Mike and here is why I
don't think it is a simple particulate blocking the pump issue:
When previously experiencing the filthy tank debris clogging the pump, the
engine would bog down under load, particularly accelerating up hills. This
makes sense when you consider the sludge will wash down toward the outlet
and into the line. When one is just tooling along on level roads, perhaps
the sludge settles back down away from the outlet. The only thing that made
me suspicious of sludge blocking the pump was the gas from the filter
appeared to be a bit rusty. I could not shake any debris out of the pump's
filter screen, couldn't see any.
The other factor that I may not have mentioned is that engine is running a
bit more roughly than previously; sputtering a tad off the line, idling a
bit more roughly.
FWIW, I've driven about 60 miles since Saturday and have not had the whining
and have not had it die at idle. Go figure.
cheers,
On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Mike <mbucchino@charter.net> wrote:
> It may be fine in all other respects, and still be cavitating or
> restricted enough to be quite noisy.
> I just removed my pump for cleaning and hose/clamp replacements (thanks
> for the replacement pump, Craig C!), and when I shook out the remaining fuel
> into a rag, I couldn't believe the amount of crap caught in the pump's
> internal pre-filter screen. I never even knew that it had a screen in the
> large inlet side, but it makes sense. It's fairly fine, and only very small
> particles will pass thru to get caught in the filter, which is after the
> pump. The pre-filter pump was eliminated by VW, possibly due to noisy pump
> operation once restricted due to particles.
> You can run it polarity-reversed to flush it out backwards through a rag
> into a bucket. Craig told me (at the Terryville show today!) that he uses
> denatured alcohol for this, so it leaves things clean and dry for storage of
> a spare pump. It's also less explosive than gasoline!
>
> Mike B.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "mordo" <helmut.blong@GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 1:39 PM
>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Subject: VERBOSE: fuel pump, ethanol, cavitation
>
>
> I'd be willing to accept that, Jake except that it does not exhibit the
>> other symptoms of being choked. Like I said, it doesn't bog down when you
>> mash the pedal. Previously when my tank was expelling crud, I would lose
>> power when I accelerated up hill or to pass.
>>
>> I'm certainly going to pull the tank when I empty it. I have an original
>> spare that is good shape.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Jake de Villiers <
>> crescentbeachguitar@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It sounds like your tank outlet is restricted. That 'laminate trimmer'
>>> noise only comes from lack of volume at the inlet side of the pump.
>>>
>>> Do as Scott suggests and run your pump from a hose into a gas can to see
>>> if
>>> that makes a difference.
>>>
>>> If the noise goes away, its time to replace the gas tank.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 7:38 AM, mordo <helmut.blong@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> O, List,
>>>>
>>>> I've been reading a lot of the discussion both here and on the Samba
>>>> about
>>>> fuel pump cavitation since I had a discouraging failure en route to the
>>>> Outer Banks Saturday a week ago. I'd appreciate the collective wisdom of
>>>> the
>>>> list on this incident.
>>>>
>>>> Van is generally running very well tho' I was a bit apprehensive of my
>>>> instrument cluster after tearing the foil thus worried that any warning
>>>> signs won't be reported. So, traffic from Springfield, VA on 95S was
>>>> hateful
>>>> as usual and that day it was dreadful all the way to 295 interchange
>>>> near
>>>> Richmond. Dodged the back up on 64E by going down to 460E, wade through
>>>> Norfolk area and on to NC 168/158 and am shortly mired in a hellish, 20
>>>> mile
>>>> debacle of too many damned vehicles all going to the same place. And,
>>>> it's
>>>> hot, hot, hot, approximately 99F "real feel" that day and the rad fan is
>>>> cycling on and off regularly and occasionally up to high speed (that's a
>>>> surprising sound). Stop and go, creeping, crawling with the AC on. About
>>>> four miles before the bridge over the Currituck Sound, I hear what I
>>>> interpret is a wheezing sound from the cooling system and the engine
>>>> sputters to a stop. We pull over onto a grassy verge and curse the gods
>>>> for
>>>> their cruelty. I try starting again and it kicks over, runs momentarily
>>>> and
>>>> the sputters to a stop again. Wheezing sound was present again.
>>>>
>>>> After hassling with an ESL support operator at my motor club, I get in
>>>> to
>>>> tell the operator the VIN. I crank it over again just for kicks and it
>>>> starts and runs normally. So, I say, "Never mind, it's running again.
>>>> I'll
>>>> call if I need a tow." We drove about 200 yards and kaput. Try to start
>>>> again and it sputters and coughs and kaput. And then the starter won't
>>>> crank
>>>> over. Wheezing sound again. After a long, hot ride in the tow truck cab
>>>> (three people plus driver) we are at our destination and I ignore the
>>>> van
>>>> in
>>>> favor of several anodyne adult beverages.
>>>>
>>>> Next day, I start it and run it and discern that the wheezing is a
>>>> noisy,
>>>> whining fuel pump. It was an aftermarket pump, about three years old so
>>>> I'm
>>>> willing to believe that it is failing. So, I order a replacement from
>>>> BusDepot. Replace it and the filter. The old filter bled rusty-looking
>>>> fuel."Hrmmm," says I. Starts rough but eventually runs fine. On the way
>>>> back
>>>> to Baltimore, I start to get the whining fuel pump sound again and
>>>> occasionally, idling at stop lights, the engine quits. Restarts normally
>>>> and
>>>> runs well at high speed, pulls strong all the way to Baltimore. So, to
>>>> summarize:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1. Hot ambient temps
>>>> 2. fill up in southern Virginia with 10% ethanol fuel
>>>> 3. fine rust in fuel filter before replacement
>>>> 4. new Bosch pump still have whining sound
>>>> 5. Engine runs well under load, acceleration normal
>>>> 6. Sputters at hot idle and sometimes quits
>>>> 7. cleaned the tank three or four years ago
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have read of the theory that ethanol-blended gasoline is responsible
>>>> for
>>>> cavitation, its specific gravity being lower than straight gasoline.
>>>> I've
>>>> read the theory that the generic Bosch pump is too fast for gasohol and
>>>> that
>>>> a resistor in line on the pump is the answer. I have experienced the
>>>> effects
>>>> of cruddy fuel choking the fuel pump and my experience was inconsistent
>>>> with
>>>> previous misadventures. That usually presented as choking and losing
>>>> power
>>>> under load.
>>>>
>>>> What do you all think is the most likely culprit? I was under the
>>>> impression
>>>> that most fuel around the mid Atlantic was 10% ethanol but perhaps I am
>>>> mistaken. I am suspicious of my fuel pressure regulator - haven't tested
>>>> fuel pressure in a couple of years.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> --
>>>> mordo
>>>> 1990 Carat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jake
>>>
>>> 1984 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX 'The Grey Van'
>>> 1986 Westy Weekender/2.5 SOHC Suby 'Dixie'
>>>
>>> Crescent Beach, BC
>>>
>>> www.thebassspa.com
>>> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
>>> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> mordo
>> 1990 Carat
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mordo
>> 1990 Carat
>>
>
>
--
mordo
1990 Carat
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