Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 15:00:45 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: 1.9 > 2.1 cooling kit?
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original
hi..
that part ...
joins main coolant hoses at the fire wall, and does have a small bleed valve
on it.
I'm not even convinced that bleeder is needed that much even.
I use them a little when getting a 1.9 running for the first time.
it's a little odd to imply that the 2.1 does not have a bleed valve there..
since there is a bleed valve on top of the t-stat housing of a 2.1 engine ..
slightly different function, but actually quite similar.
so it's not true really that a 2.1 does not have a bleed valve where the 1.9
does ..
slightly different yes, but to imply a 2.1 doesn't have one is not the whole
story really.
about 'fewer parts' ..
sorry charlie.
I challenge anyone to count every last single hose in a 2.1 waterboxer
vanagon.
just on the bleed rail alone, which a 1.9 doesn't even have ...
there are 6 seperate hoses to that bleed rail.
two of them a specific hoses, being different diameters on both ends...
like you can't easiy subsitute with generic hose.
furthermore ...the bleed rail around the top of the 2.1 engine compartment
..
those come in metal or plastic. I have seen two plastic ones break.
and that is an odd part - I'd be very suprised if that part is available
new, though it could be somewhere.
but really....
I sure can't agree that a 2.1 has fewer cooling system parts than a 1.9.
Far more the other way around !!
I have converted a 19 to full 2.1 cooling system.
Couldn't tell any difference.
and here is one part on a 2.1 I am pretty critical of...
( one the 1.9 doesn't even have ) .
it's the 'coolant distributor' or tower, hidden behind the firewall on the
right side, and on the trans side so you'd never even noitce it normally.
first , it's plastic, and they just crumble where a heater hose goes on.
2nd.....there are about 3 or 4 versions. See that part on Van Cafe's site
and they tell you right there..the only way to get the right part is to pull
yours and get the part # of it.
3rd...
if you were in nowheresville and that part failed ..
and you wanted to jury rig somethng up to keep moving ...
you look at that part with about 5 conections on it, and you're not sure
what does what, Eventually you could figure out something somehow, and keep
moving with about 50 bucks worth of hardware store plastic and brass parts
...
but it is a very dedicated part .
in my mind, *everything* should be build to generic hoses can be used if
needed.
I don't mind a manufacturer making a special molded hose here and there ....
but to just make some hose with 5 separate ends, where only that exact hose
will work, and they are $ 125 if you can even get it ...
not very impressed with that.
4th ...it's just hard to get and and deal with.
i will say the 1.9 t-stat can be a bother. Part of that, as I wrote
yesterday is people not protecting cooling system bolt thrads with either
anti-seize compound or gasket sealer on the bolt threads ..
it is a dumb design that two long bolts go through an area that can
corrode..
but if those long holes are cleaned out, the bolts lubed properly with
anti-seize, they're fine.
so bit of poor design there,
and poor workmanship on them often.
Almost all threads need something on them, a few exceptions, but I almost
never put ANY threads together dry.
I don' t track too much what GW does..
but I have seen a lot of this ...
a vendor has a picture of their whatever part, and they have text about how
wonderfully that will solve X problem ..
and sometimes that isn't even true !
( there's a very clever push button shifting feature on my 88 740 volvo
turbo sedan ...super nice feature, I use it countless times driving, nice
one button touch to keep it from going into 4th very overdrive - auto
rans - or let it shift up into 4th when I'm ready ...
this one famous volvo company claims you don't need that featue ...
total bunk.
without that feature, the trans shifts up really early for fuel economy
reasons...and the engine will always be at almost only 2,000 rpm - nearly
lugging ...if you drive gently and let it do it's own thing...............
so that companay is flat wrong in their claim for thier little gizmo to
eliminate that brilliant feature on that car . )
so you see that ..
you see some half truths promoting vendor's products.
I can't really agree that the 2.1 cooling system has fewer parts. it has
more than the 1.9 does.
hyperbole.
that's used sometimes ...it goes like this 'use this product and all your X
problems will be gone forever."
a vendor did that a while back about a product.
the implication was it was a no brainer, bolt-on, never an issue again ..
and it turned out the product didn't actualy fit exactly the way it comes
...
but that wasn't clear in the initial annoucnement. I had to ask to find that
out.
so read all those things with a bit of skepticsm.
and frankly most advertising is hyperbole.
it's not that X product is THE best on in the world...
What would be responsible for an advertiser to say is something along the
lines of 'we believe our product delivers a great combination of features
and durabiilty for the price."
really ....the amount of lies going on ...
it's not friday so I can't say that a huge majority of what goverment and
corporations say is all stuff designed to 'sound right' ...we don't even get
to know what the REAL truth is on all those issues. We can only use the
media we have and try to figure out what might be true.
too long,
but there are not fewer parts in a 2.1 waterboxer vanagon .
and my challenge ..
take a syncro or a late model 2WD van with auto trans and rear heater, and
count every single last hose in the entire van from heater core to engine ..
it's got to be around 40 sepearate hoses.
which means 80 hose clamps. ..or some number like that.
and for a keeper 1.9 vanagon ..
you might invest $ 200 in that aluminum part.
I'm still running the plastic part, and I have spares, and carry a spare.
make sure you specify for auto trans when ordering one.
scott
www.turbovans.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rocket J Squirrel" <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: 1.9 > 2.1 cooling kit?
> On Wed, 2010-09-01 at 18:14 -0700, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
>> I've converted a van like yours to full 2.1 cooling system.
>> every last part, from main coolant pipes back , changed over from 1.9
>> cooling system to 2.1 cooling system.
>>
>> is the 2.1 system simplier ? ...not at all.
>> Can't imagine why anyone would say that.
>> it's roughtly the same in terms of 'general vanagon cooling system
>> weirdness' .
>> i.e. - 'they have their issues too."
>> and they have more plastic parts in them than the 1.9 system does.
>
> On their website, GoWesty writes that,
>
> "...there are many 83-85, 1.9 liter Vanagon cooling system parts that
> are no longer available. The cooling system was completely redesigned in
> 1986 with the introduction of the 2.1 liter engine. The newer '86-'91
> system has fewer parts overall (and, in fact, this bleeder valve was
> eliminated). [...] So, if the rest of your cooling system is original
> and also on its knees, it might be time to bite the bullet and convert
> the whole damn thing to the better 86-91 system... "
>
> Link: <
> http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=4242&category_id=79&category_parent_id= >
>
> And I think I misunderstood what my mechanic was telling me. It ain't
> the "coolant tower" (my made-up name for it) because that's only $100 in
> stainless from GoWesty. For the $200 he said that part was, it has to be
> GoWesty's machined aluminum bleeder valve assembly, shown on the page
> link, above.
>
> Unless he's gonna try to sell me a $100 part for $200. In which case,
> I'll be ready for him.