Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:20:10 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Apology to List...especially the Mechanics
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well Rich,
no apolgies needed as far as I'm concerned.
here's what I tell people in a case like your steering rack..
I might say something like 'I noticed a smal leak on your PS rack. Seems to
be fine for now, and it's not using fluid ..so 'just a note' on it for now.
On the other hand, if you are taking a major 5 month trip to alaska and want
to avoid any possibly anticipated problems ....you might want to do this
now..
but for normal use, just keep an eye on it."
I advise them.
YOU ARE RIGHT ....'many shops' talk like 'it's broken or almost broken and
you need a whole new one."
Mark my words..
what most shops to is not look for the best way to spend your money ..
what the look for are *justifyable, profittable, repair jobs* on your car or
van.
and that is EXACTLY why you are a little suspecious. You are right to be a
little suspecious.
If they Really Cared..
they would be looking for ways for you to NOT spend money on your van that
you don't need to.
Not that they'd let you ignore some issue that's better dealth with now..
but they will advise you on when is best to deal with an issue.
If they are trying to sell you a PS rack with a small leak ..
they are looking for ways to get your money.
What you would like to hear is what I suggested above...'we found a small
leak, but for now, it's worthy of being monitored, you don't need a whole
new PS rack really, not yet anyway. "
$ 250 for how many trans output flange reseal jobs ?
sounded like the one side to me.
even if it's both sides....$ 250 sounds like very 'fancy shop' prices to me.
AND for any sign of tired power steering where things are not really broken
..
I would *always* service the power steering.
I don't think anyone does.
I'm sure there are people reading this that know there's a filter screen in
the bottom of the PS resevoir .
that should at least be inspected, and cleaned or replaced if that seems
appropiate.
Then ..
pump all the old ATF out of it you can, feeding in new ATF as old comes out
of the low pressure return line..Add Lucas brand power steering fluid
conditioner ...
I can pump out 3 qts of old ATF from a PS system,.
fill it back up with Royal Purple synthetic ATF, and feel the difference in
the system.
about fluids and mechanical devices..
the fluids carry heat away, the fluids keep the metal parts from actually
touching and wearing.
The properties of all automtive fluids wear out with time and miles.
in all fluid systems ....getting the old out,and new in, helps a lot.
the one exception is if something is on its last legs ...just barely hanging
in there but working ..
in those situations, new fluids or treatments can push things over the edge
to completel leaking or failure.
but otherwise ..all fluid systems need the fluids refreshed on a regular
basis if you are really trying to take care of it.
and all our vanagons have ATF in the PS systems that's at least 10 years old
..
if you see metal particles in the PS resevoir or screen ...that's a really
bad sign. It's 'too late' pretty much if you see that.
and really ...that's what most shops do ..they look for 'justifiable,
profittable repairs' ..for Them...has nothing to do ......
NOTHING to do at all with spending your money the best way, or taking care
of your van really.
it's like court ..
in criminal court...'the truth' has nothing to do at all with what really
goes on or how things turn out.
It's what they can get away with ...that's where the focus is. Sadly.
In many car shops. I don't know how they sleep at night.
I guess they don't like to think or have any real challenge ..I think it's
really fun to figure out just what the exact right repair is for a given
situation ..on the van, and for the customer.
For some rich people ...'all new everything' for them might be right.
for the common hard working person ..
it's the repair that will work the best, and last the longest, given the
resources available to work with.
Now that is a fun way to fix cars for people.
In the common shop system,
there's no brains involved, no challenge................ no risk etc. in
saying ...'you need a whole new one'
and funny thing is ..
even THEN you can loose ground ! I have people writing me that spend big,
bit bucks thinking 'all new' was going to fix it once and for all, and yet
....even 3,000 dollars later ...they're still having problems..
I would really like to know ..actually measure workmanship quality in car
repair in the US ..
it's never addresssed in any automotive trade magazine ..
yet up to half the work I see on cars and vans is 'weak'....things loose,
left off, wrong thing done, super cheap parts etc ....very common actually.
so ..point is ...'a whole new one' is no gurantee that it'll be done right.
Many shops 'sell' ..they diagnose without serious care, sell the job ...
sell the job...like 'all new hoses' say ..then they have their lowest
trained tech do it quickly ..
when half the time you didn't even really need that in the first place.
And the work is sloppy too.
and they will speak to you like you must be dumb if you question them ..
and like you don't have any option about the repairs they recommend.
and ...serious warning here again ..
they will do this even worse for women !!!!!
because they don't think women will not know they're getting a bad job done.
I don't think many people in this culture have much of an idea what
'service' is ...being in serivce..
being in service to a cause ..being in service to really doing great work
for people. I really don't know how some people sleep at night, they are so
far from that evidently-unknown-to-them, concept.
May Vanaon get great service and repairs at fair prices wherever they go !
scott
www.turbovans.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake de Villiers" <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Apology to List...especially the Mechanics
> Very well said Richard. Its always good to consider the view from the
> other
> side.
>
> Seeya, Jake
>
> PS Now get out there and change your radiator! ;)
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Richard Koerner
> <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>
>> Yesterday I posted the events that transpired when visiting my mechanic
>> to
>> solve my leaking transmission seal at the CV joint. I implied that they
>> might not have been totally ethical in their approach, recommending
>> expensive repairs to fill their wallets and empty mine. It was pointed
>> out
>> to me that I was dead wrong.
>>
>> Thinking it through....
>> This independent shop I go to has been a thriving business for over 30
>> years; their reputation is solid, and that doesn't happen by accident.
>> Years and years of very hard work and dedication go into building a
>> business
>> like that, providing service and wisdom that is often totally
>> under-appreciated. Yes, they could have just done the seal work....but
>> in
>> retrospect I must commend them for going the extra
>> mile, spending their time and effort to investigate other potential
>> trouble points as a courtesy. Leaks, cracks, and the like don't fix
>> themselves....they are a gentle warning sign that something is brewing;
>> fix
>> me now while it's easy or fix me later when it's now turned into
>> something
>> really expensive or even dangerous to myself or others on the road.
>> They
>> are simply being professional, and doing the right thing.
>>
>> Also, they have no idea of the mechanical knowledge of the general
>> customer, they have to assume the worst case of total ignorance, and do
>> the
>> best job they can to "call it like they see it", however unpleasant that
>> news may be.
>>
>> It's like going to a doctor or dentist for one problem; they check things
>> out, do some tests, and find 3 or 4 more things that when dealt with
>> early
>> are easy, but if ignored start compounding. "An ounce of prevention is
>> worth a pound of cure." That sort of thing.
>> Frustrating perhaps, disappointing for sure, but that's life. Nobody
>> likes bad news.
>>
>> And my implication that they might be trying to take advantage of the
>> situation was an insult both specifically to them, as well as all the
>> other
>> fine folks in their profession, including the Professional Mechanics on
>> this
>> List, who generously spend the time and effort to help and inform without
>> compensation and often little thanks. Dealing with rude, impatient,
>> ungrateful, suspicious, insulting and ignorant customers don't make their
>> jobs any easier as well; the grit, the heat, the solvents, the aches, the
>> injuries, the noise, the expenses are all bad enough in themselves...yes,
>> it's a tough profession, so under-appreciated.
>>
>> For this, I apologize.
>>
>> I appreciate the opportunity to speak, and next time I visit my mechanic
>> will do so with a new perspective. Thanks.
>>
>> Rich ....learning from my mistakes
>>
>>
>>
>> Took van in this morning, just got a call back. They said there is
>> "some" play in the drive shaft; if I just replace the seals (a seal kit,
>> am assuming it replaces seals, o-ring, and cap) they won't guarantee
>> that it won't leak. Rebuilding the transmission would be next option.
>> No. I'm going to take the $250 gamble and just do the seal kit. (I'm
>> aware of the 3rd/4th Slider Hub problem; my driving style is as gentle
>> and silky smooth in shifting as possible, plus most of the miles are
>> long distance freeway where it might be hours between shifts, so I think
>> I've got good life left in the tranny. Maybe when it's time for a new
>> engine or conversion, but that's still 25,000 miles away, maybe more.)
>>
>> They
>> also "looked" around. Said power steering rack was leaking, parts and
>> labor is $750. Now, I am aware of this
>> TINY weep of a leak, from that little cover with 2 hex bolts about in
>> the middle (I took it off, cleaned and polished things up, no gasket
>> that I could see, put back together, and GREATLY reduced the already
>> tiny weep). Ends of the rack and everywhere else is bone dry. So to
>> just "matter of factly" recommend a fairly expensive and in my view
>> unnecessary replacement of the ENTIRE rack starts to make me suspicious
>> of my mechanic's motives...of course he'd like to get the tranny
>> re-build job too and a bundle of cash.
>>
>> They also noticed a bit of
>> crusty fluid on the side of the front radiator; says not leaking now,
>> but might. Could that just be where I did the bleeding, ran down the
>> side and the stuff dried into crystals? Anyway, times must be hard at
>> the mechanics shop, too, but I'm feeling a little like they are trying
>> to take advantage of an uninformed Vanagon owner. 'Course, little do
>> they know that I've got The
>> Vanagon List in my arsenal of tricks! So while I agree with GoWesty,
>> for instance, that a redo of the cooling system should probably go along
>> with an expensive new engine, I'm going to watch and wait on that one,
>> too.
>>
>> I'm definitely a proponent of keeping ahead of the game on
>> the vehicle, and would rather do repairs here in town than a couple
>> thousand miles away, for all the obvious reasons. Still, don't want to
>> throw money away on "biased" recommendations for repairs. The total of
>> their recommendations is probably approaching $3K....I think I'll be
>> fine (for now) at a tenth of that.
>>
>> Rich
>> San Diego
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jake
>
> 1984 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX 'The Grey Van'
> 1986 Westy Weekender/2.5 SOHC Suby 'Dixie'
>
> Crescent Beach, BC
>
> www.thebassspa.com
> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
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