Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:50:20 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: [subaruvanagon] Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
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Well..
sure ..there is 'some' galvanic 'battery' affect with using stainless steel coolant pipes.
'some' ..as in 'not much really' I'd say.
I'd say ground your stainless pipes with braided grounding strap if you're that worried about it
I'll read the RJES piece...and I suspect their water might be harder than ours.
I'll say this.....living in the western US - Ca, OR, and Wa and working on cars full, full time for decades .......I have used this coolant mixture with extreme success, and zero corrosion on many cars...
I mix a quality anti-frz 50/50 with clean tap water ..
and I add a bit of machinist's cutting oil ..a water soluble oil that makes a great rust inhibutor and water pump lubricant. I have used this mixture in litterally hundreds of cars and vanagons ..
nary a problem with corrosion ever. ..or new corrosion let's say.
heck, I have even put in my clever little mixture on a 2.1 wbxr vanagon with seepig outer rubber water gasekts on one head ......and a touch of Bars Leak ..and that van was fine for quite a while after that.
I think this notion that all vanagons with stainless main coolant pipes are doomed ..
and that it's a near emergency and everyone needs to rip those out right away ..
is silly actually.
Or strongly overstated let's say.
By far ....the Main Factor in any cooling system corrosion is not having a good batch of fresh high quality coolant in it ...and changing it regularily ..
on our old vans, I'd say once a year isn't too often, since you never it all out anyway.
Personally ...I think what you DO on a van is far more important than what you USE on it ..
you do need to use quality parts and fluids , of course..
but it's the 'careful picky care' ...
the psychic healing factor ..
the actually fussing over every detail of corrosion you find anywhere ..
that's how you take care of a vanagon cooling system ..and I swear that water soluble oil works superbly ...like a small coffee cupfull in the entire system.
There is no engine corrosion crisis in the US from using stainless main coolant pipes that I can tell, at all.
The battery/galvanic affect is minimal in my expereince, at least here in the Western US.
we're doomed ! we're doomed ! Rip out all stainless cooling system pipes immediately !
lol. ( but I do want to read the RJES piece...I respect the guy a lot. - thanks for posting it )
Scott
www.turbovans.com
since it's fridae ....ever read Richard Back's 'Illusions' I think is the name of the book ...?
it's about a guy whise stunt biplane never gets bugs on it, never runs out of fuel.
The point of the book is 'magic manifestation' ...
that through sheer mental power or good karma or whatever ..........your machinery can do very well...
of course things get dirty and fuel runs out , and engine oil gets dirty with time, etc...
but .....some people have more problems than other people do. The 'psychic healing' factor is real.
You clean and polish your van inside and out ...it will run better.
You really understand the systems on it and you take care of them with methods that work for you ...
you manifest successful vanagon operation .......just because you do. Or maybe it's just because you are super tuned into every nuance of any system ...in this case cooling system. You notice immediately if anything is different or needs attention, and you give it that attention.
The book is a good read, particularily for those who love aviation.. Mabye all people can't do it...but some people actually make things last well, and work well, and in addition to the adjustments, parts and fluids they do on it .....there is some 'mental force or intention' that can make your cooling system nearly never corrode - that's not to say you can abuse it ...but just through understanding, some good workmansihp and decent materials used .....very corrosion free operation is possible, and your intention that that's how it's going to be.
Ever notice ......you let someone borrow your van or car that you are really into and love and have working very well. Somehow, when you get it back ...it is different. Subtly, but different somehow yet.
That's because they are not 'conducting' the vehicle to work smoothly and nicely like you are without you realizing it. The affect is real. Subtle, but real. People that are deeply mentally and psychiclly simpatico with their machinery won't really have much corrosion going on, even with stainless main pipes.
And of course they have to do mostly the right thing in mantaining it ..of course ! ..but there is some subtle 'thing' that is 'more' than just the parts or fluids you put in it. It's how you deeply understand it and really relate to it, let's say.
----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Drew
To: Syncro@yahoogroups.com ; VANAGON@GERRY.VANAGON.COM ; subaruvanagon@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:51 AM
Subject: [subaruvanagon] Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
It has become very common in Vanagon circles for owners to change
their coolant pipes to stainless steel designs.
Terry K introduced one of the first stainless steel pipes in North
America, and other thinner walled pipes were later introduced from
Europe and elsewhere. Now, many vendors offer stainless pipes, and
the plastic pipes that seemed so stupid to us because they fail are
becoming NLA (no longer available).
An argument came to my attention this week at RJES that the use of
stainless steel for coolant pipes is a kind of an idiot thing to
do..... a kind of automotive-engineering-101-no-no.
Apparently, engine coolant tends to be conductive enough that even
though the stainless pipes are not touching at either end, the
stainless pipes can create a battery (galvanic corrosion) and cause
the engine to start turning into a more dust like material over time.
I am sure that many of you have seen old transmissions with magnesium
housings that mysteriously turned to dust on the top, apparently
because of a battery set up between the magnesium and the aluminum engines.
Theoretically, the use of stainless steel pipes could be causing our
engines to be changing this way as well, through galvanic electricity
passed through the engine coolant.
This is either an emergency, as potentially now thousands of Vanagons
in North America with stainless coolant pipes must now have the pipes
removed, or it is a potential problem that we can manage by attention
to the issue from our more capable automotive engineers.
If there is an alternative to ripping the pipes out of all our vans,
it seems that help might be found in one or more of the following:
a) methods to alter the chemistry of the coolant to make it less
conductive, less electrolyte?, less acidic? such as potentially
adding Schaeffer's Clean and Cool:
http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/258_coolant_additive.html
b) placement of zinc sacrificial anodes in such a way as to protect
the engine,
c) take steps to make sure there are no electrical contacts
(uninsulated contacts) between the stainless pipes and the metal of
the vehicle body or any metal part, or
c) just poo poo the issue and announce that we have not seen engines
degraded yet due to the use of these pipes.
I noticed that the Schaefferoil is available in various sizes,
including 55 gallon drums, which I imagine might be something we
could order in advance of van meetings as a draw to attend, and a
communal religious experience of drinking of the 55 gallon drum for initiates.
It remains to be discussed how realistic the claims might be that
this stuff can stop galvanic corrosion through the coolant water so
commentary on that is sought.
Here is Richard's RJES.com alarming and thoughtful text on the
subject that I noticed this week:
http://www.rjes.com/html/material_choice.html
The following Google search query produces more on the topic if
anybody can spend some time in these links:
"engine coolant" conductive galvanic
_______________________________________________
Derek Drew
Founder, ConsumerSearch.com
Washington DC / New York
derekdrew@derekmail.com
202-966-7907 (Call the number at left normally)
(alt/cell for diligent calling only): 703-408-1532
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