Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 20:32:04 -0400
Reply-To: Mike <mbucchino@CHARTER.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Mike <mbucchino@CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
In-Reply-To: <4CB7571A.3020609@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
the sky is falling! fear-mongering. Bull.
But if you're really concerned;
Coat the pipes inside and out with black POR-15........
Solder on braided bonding straps; bond everything to chassis ground - no
potential, no current flow.
next subject..............
Mike B.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ken Wilford" <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:16 PM
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Subject: Re: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
> Well said Scott,
> I am so tired of the "I just invented a problem, but don't worry I have
> the solution" mindset that seems to be prevalent in our day. Seems to
> have gained steam since the ozone layer, Y2K, Bird Flu, Swine Flu,
> Global Warming, and now stainless steel coolant pipes. I feel
> privileged just to be alive since all of the previous things were
> supposed to kill me and I have survived them all! I guess Vanagons will
> survive stainless steel coolant pipes as well although that may be an
> "inconvenient truth" for some. :-)
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Ken Wilford
> John 3:16
> www.vanagain.com
> Phone: 856-327-4936
> Fax: 856-327-2242
>
>
>
> On 10/14/2010 2:54 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
>> ( well now I see it's on several lists separately .
>> I did 'suburu vanagon' already ..and I'll do vanagongerry this time -
>> it's
>> longish. )
>>
>> Well..
>> sure ..there is 'some' galvanic 'battery' affect with using stainless
>> steel
>> coolant pipes.
>> 'some' ..as in 'not much really' I'd say.
>>
>> I'd say ground your stainless pipes with braided grounding strap if
>> you're
>> that worried about it
>> I'll read the RJES piece...and I suspect their water might be harder than
>> ours.
>>
>> I'll say this.....living in the western US - Ca, OR, and Wa and
>> working on
>> cars full, full time for decades .......I have used this coolant mixture
>> with extreme success, and zero corrosion on many cars...
>> I mix a quality anti-frz 50/50 with clean tap water ..
>> and I add a bit of machinist's cutting oil ..a water soluble oil that
>> makes
>> a great rust inhibutor and water pump lubricant. I have used this
>> mixture in
>> litterally hundreds of cars and vanagons ..
>> nary a problem with corrosion ever. ..or new corrosion let's say.
>>
>> heck, I have even put in my clever little mixture on a 2.1 wbxr
>> vanagon with
>> seepig outer rubber water gasekts on one head ......and a touch of
>> Bars Leak
>> ..and that van was fine for quite a while after that.
>>
>> I think this notion that all vanagons with stainless main coolant
>> pipes are
>> doomed ..
>> and that it's a near emergency and everyone needs to rip those out right
>> away ..
>> is silly actually.
>> Or strongly overstated let's say.
>>
>> By far ....the Main Factor in any cooling system corrosion is not
>> having a
>> good batch of fresh high quality coolant in it ...and changing it
>> regularily
>> ..
>> on our old vans, I'd say once a year isn't too often, since you never
>> it all
>> out anyway.
>>
>> Personally ...I think what you DO on a van is far more important than
>> what
>> you USE on it ..
>> you do need to use quality parts and fluids , of course..
>> but it's the 'careful picky care' ...
>> the psychic healing factor ..
>> the actually fussing over every detail of corrosion you find anywhere ..
>> that's how you take care of a vanagon cooling system ..and I swear that
>> water soluble oil works superbly ...like a small coffee cupfull in the
>> entire system.
>>
>> There is no engine corrosion crisis in the US from using stainless main
>> coolant pipes that I can tell, at all.
>> The battery/galvanic affect is minimal in my expereince, at least here in
>> the Western US.
>>
>> we're doomed ! we're doomed ! Rip out all stainless cooling system pipes
>> immediately !
>>
>> lol. ( but I do want to read the RJES piece...I respect the guy a
>> lot. -
>> thanks for posting it )
>> Scott
>> www.turbovans.com
>>
>> extra -
>> since it's fridae ....ever read Richard Back's 'Illusions' I think is the
>> name of the book ...?
>> it's about a guy whise stunt biplane never gets bugs on it, never
>> runs out
>> of fuel.
>> The point of the book is 'magic manifestation' ...
>> that through sheer mental power or good karma or whatever ..........your
>> machinery can do very well...
>> of course things get dirty and fuel runs out , and engine oil gets dirty
>> with time, etc...
>> but .....some people have more problems than other people do. The
>> 'psychic
>> healing' factor is real.
>> You clean and polish your van inside and out ...it will run better.
>> You really understand the systems on it and you take care of them with
>> methods that work for you ...
>> you manifest successful vanagon operation .......just because you do. Or
>> maybe it's just because you are super tuned into every nuance of any
>> system
>> ...in this case cooling system. You notice immediately if anything is
>> different or needs attention, and you give it that attention.
>> The book is a good read, particularily for those who love aviation..
>> Mabye all people can't do it...but some people actually make things last
>> well, and work well, and in addition to the adjustments, parts and fluids
>> they do on it .....there is some 'mental force or intention' that can
>> make
>> your cooling system nearly never corrode - that's not to say you can
>> abuse
>> it ...but just through understanding, some good workmansihp and decent
>> materials used .....very corrosion free operation is possible, and your
>> intention that that's how it's going to be.
>> Ever notice ......you let someone borrow your van or car that you are
>> really into and love and have working very well. Somehow, when you get it
>> back ...it is different. Subtly, but different somehow yet.
>> That's because they are not 'conducting' the vehicle to work smoothly and
>> nicely like you are without you realizing it. The affect is real.
>> Subtle,
>> but real. People that are deeply mentally and psychiclly simpatico with
>> their machinery won't really have much corrosion going on, even with
>> stainless main pipes.
>> And of course they have to do mostly the right thing in mantaining it
>> ..of
>> course ! ..but there is some subtle 'thing' that is 'more' than just the
>> parts or fluids you put in it. It's how you deeply understand it and
>> really
>> relate to it, let's say.
>>
>> Ciao,
>> scott
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Derek Drew
>> To: Syncro@yahoogroups.com ; VANAGON@GERRY.VANAGON.COM ;
>> subaruvanagon@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:51 AM
>> Subject: [subaruvanagon] Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
>>
>>
>>
>> It has become very common in Vanagon circles for owners to change
>> their coolant pipes to stainless steel designs.
>>
>> Terry K introduced one of the first stainless steel pipes in North
>> America, and other thinner walled pipes were later introduced from
>> Europe and elsewhere. Now, many vendors offer stainless pipes, and
>> the plastic pipes that seemed so stupid to us because they fail are
>> becoming NLA (no longer available).
>>
>> An argument came to my attention this week at RJES that the use of
>> stainless steel for coolant pipes is a kind of an idiot thing to
>> do..... a kind of automotive-engineering-101-no-no.
>>
>> Apparently, engine coolant tends to be conductive enough that even
>> though the stainless pipes are not touching at either end, the
>> stainless pipes can create a battery (galvanic corrosion) and cause
>> the engine to start turning into a more dust like material over time.
>>
>> I am sure that many of you have seen old transmissions with magnesium
>> housings that mysteriously turned to dust on the top, apparently
>> because of a battery set up between the magnesium and the aluminum
>> engines.
>>
>> Theoretically, the use of stainless steel pipes could be causing our
>> engines to be changing this way as well, through galvanic electricity
>> passed through the engine coolant.
>>
>> This is either an emergency, as potentially now thousands of Vanagons
>> in North America with stainless coolant pipes must now have the pipes
>> removed, or it is a potential problem that we can manage by attention
>> to the issue from our more capable automotive engineers.
>>
>> If there is an alternative to ripping the pipes out of all our vans,
>> it seems that help might be found in one or more of the following:
>>
>> a) methods to alter the chemistry of the coolant to make it less
>> conductive, less electrolyte?, less acidic? such as potentially
>> adding Schaeffer's Clean and Cool:
>> http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/258_coolant_additive.html
>>
>> b) placement of zinc sacrificial anodes in such a way as to protect
>> the engine,
>>
>> c) take steps to make sure there are no electrical contacts
>> (uninsulated contacts) between the stainless pipes and the metal of
>> the vehicle body or any metal part, or
>>
>> c) just poo poo the issue and announce that we have not seen engines
>> degraded yet due to the use of these pipes.
>>
>> I noticed that the Schaefferoil is available in various sizes,
>> including 55 gallon drums, which I imagine might be something we
>> could order in advance of van meetings as a draw to attend, and a
>> communal religious experience of drinking of the 55 gallon drum for
>> initiates.
>>
>> It remains to be discussed how realistic the claims might be that
>> this stuff can stop galvanic corrosion through the coolant water so
>> commentary on that is sought.
>>
>> Here is Richard's RJES.com alarming and thoughtful text on the
>> subject that I noticed this week:
>>
>> http://www.rjes.com/html/material_choice.html
>>
>> The following Google search query produces more on the topic if
>> anybody can spend some time in these links:
>>
>> "engine coolant" conductive galvanic
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Derek Drew
>> Founder, ConsumerSearch.com
>> Washington DC / New York
>> derekdrew@derekmail.com
>> 202-966-7907 (Call the number at left normally)
>> (alt/cell for diligent calling only): 703-408-1532
>>
>>
>>
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>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Derek Drew" <derekdrew@DEREKMAIL.COM>
>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:51 AM
>> Subject: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
>>
>>
>>> It has become very common in Vanagon circles for owners to change
>>> their coolant pipes to stainless steel designs.
>>>
>>> Terry K introduced one of the first stainless steel pipes in North
>>> America, and other thinner walled pipes were later introduced from
>>> Europe and elsewhere. Now, many vendors offer stainless pipes, and
>>> the plastic pipes that seemed so stupid to us because they fail are
>>> becoming NLA (no longer available).
>>>
>>> An argument came to my attention this week at RJES that the use of
>>> stainless steel for coolant pipes is a kind of an idiot thing to
>>> do..... a kind of automotive-engineering-101-no-no.
>>>
>>> Apparently, engine coolant tends to be conductive enough that even
>>> though the stainless pipes are not touching at either end, the
>>> stainless pipes can create a battery (galvanic corrosion) and cause
>>> the engine to start turning into a more dust like material over time.
>>>
>>> I am sure that many of you have seen old transmissions with magnesium
>>> housings that mysteriously turned to dust on the top, apparently
>>> because of a battery set up between the magnesium and the aluminum
>>> engines.
>>>
>>> Theoretically, the use of stainless steel pipes could be causing our
>>> engines to be changing this way as well, through galvanic electricity
>>> passed through the engine coolant.
>>>
>>> This is either an emergency, as potentially now thousands of Vanagons
>>> in North America with stainless coolant pipes must now have the pipes
>>> removed, or it is a potential problem that we can manage by attention
>>> to the issue from our more capable automotive engineers.
>>>
>>> If there is an alternative to ripping the pipes out of all our vans,
>>> it seems that help might be found in one or more of the following:
>>>
>>> a) methods to alter the chemistry of the coolant to make it less
>>> conductive, less electrolyte?, less acidic? such as potentially
>>> adding Schaeffer's Clean and Cool:
>>> http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/258_coolant_additive.html
>>>
>>> b) placement of zinc sacrificial anodes in such a way as to protect
>>> the engine,
>>>
>>> c) take steps to make sure there are no electrical contacts
>>> (uninsulated contacts) between the stainless pipes and the metal of
>>> the vehicle body or any metal part, or
>>>
>>> c) just poo poo the issue and announce that we have not seen engines
>>> degraded yet due to the use of these pipes.
>>>
>>> I noticed that the Schaefferoil is available in various sizes,
>>> including 55 gallon drums, which I imagine might be something we
>>> could order in advance of van meetings as a draw to attend, and a
>>> communal religious experience of drinking of the 55 gallon drum for
>>> initiates.
>>>
>>> It remains to be discussed how realistic the claims might be that
>>> this stuff can stop galvanic corrosion through the coolant water so
>>> commentary on that is sought.
>>>
>>> Here is Richard's RJES.com alarming and thoughtful text on the
>>> subject that I noticed this week:
>>>
>>> http://www.rjes.com/html/material_choice.html
>>>
>>> The following Google search query produces more on the topic if
>>> anybody can spend some time in these links:
>>>
>>> "engine coolant" conductive galvanic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Derek Drew
>>> Founder, ConsumerSearch.com
>>> Washington DC / New York
>>> derekdrew@derekmail.com
>>> 202-966-7907 (Call the number at left normally)
>>> (alt/cell for diligent calling only): 703-408-1532
>>
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