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Date:         Thu, 14 Oct 2010 20:32:04 -0400
Reply-To:     Mike <mbucchino@CHARTER.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Mike <mbucchino@CHARTER.NET>
Subject:      Re: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
Comments: To: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
In-Reply-To:  <4CB7571A.3020609@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=response

the sky is falling! fear-mongering. Bull.

But if you're really concerned;

Coat the pipes inside and out with black POR-15........

Solder on braided bonding straps; bond everything to chassis ground - no potential, no current flow.

next subject..............

Mike B.

-------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken Wilford" <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:16 PM To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Subject: Re: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines

> Well said Scott, > I am so tired of the "I just invented a problem, but don't worry I have > the solution" mindset that seems to be prevalent in our day. Seems to > have gained steam since the ozone layer, Y2K, Bird Flu, Swine Flu, > Global Warming, and now stainless steel coolant pipes. I feel > privileged just to be alive since all of the previous things were > supposed to kill me and I have survived them all! I guess Vanagons will > survive stainless steel coolant pipes as well although that may be an > "inconvenient truth" for some. :-) > > -- > Thanks, > Ken Wilford > John 3:16 > www.vanagain.com > Phone: 856-327-4936 > Fax: 856-327-2242 > > > > On 10/14/2010 2:54 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote: >> ( well now I see it's on several lists separately . >> I did 'suburu vanagon' already ..and I'll do vanagongerry this time - >> it's >> longish. ) >> >> Well.. >> sure ..there is 'some' galvanic 'battery' affect with using stainless >> steel >> coolant pipes. >> 'some' ..as in 'not much really' I'd say. >> >> I'd say ground your stainless pipes with braided grounding strap if >> you're >> that worried about it >> I'll read the RJES piece...and I suspect their water might be harder than >> ours. >> >> I'll say this.....living in the western US - Ca, OR, and Wa and >> working on >> cars full, full time for decades .......I have used this coolant mixture >> with extreme success, and zero corrosion on many cars... >> I mix a quality anti-frz 50/50 with clean tap water .. >> and I add a bit of machinist's cutting oil ..a water soluble oil that >> makes >> a great rust inhibutor and water pump lubricant. I have used this >> mixture in >> litterally hundreds of cars and vanagons .. >> nary a problem with corrosion ever. ..or new corrosion let's say. >> >> heck, I have even put in my clever little mixture on a 2.1 wbxr >> vanagon with >> seepig outer rubber water gasekts on one head ......and a touch of >> Bars Leak >> ..and that van was fine for quite a while after that. >> >> I think this notion that all vanagons with stainless main coolant >> pipes are >> doomed .. >> and that it's a near emergency and everyone needs to rip those out right >> away .. >> is silly actually. >> Or strongly overstated let's say. >> >> By far ....the Main Factor in any cooling system corrosion is not >> having a >> good batch of fresh high quality coolant in it ...and changing it >> regularily >> .. >> on our old vans, I'd say once a year isn't too often, since you never >> it all >> out anyway. >> >> Personally ...I think what you DO on a van is far more important than >> what >> you USE on it .. >> you do need to use quality parts and fluids , of course.. >> but it's the 'careful picky care' ... >> the psychic healing factor .. >> the actually fussing over every detail of corrosion you find anywhere .. >> that's how you take care of a vanagon cooling system ..and I swear that >> water soluble oil works superbly ...like a small coffee cupfull in the >> entire system. >> >> There is no engine corrosion crisis in the US from using stainless main >> coolant pipes that I can tell, at all. >> The battery/galvanic affect is minimal in my expereince, at least here in >> the Western US. >> >> we're doomed ! we're doomed ! Rip out all stainless cooling system pipes >> immediately ! >> >> lol. ( but I do want to read the RJES piece...I respect the guy a >> lot. - >> thanks for posting it ) >> Scott >> www.turbovans.com >> >> extra - >> since it's fridae ....ever read Richard Back's 'Illusions' I think is the >> name of the book ...? >> it's about a guy whise stunt biplane never gets bugs on it, never >> runs out >> of fuel. >> The point of the book is 'magic manifestation' ... >> that through sheer mental power or good karma or whatever ..........your >> machinery can do very well... >> of course things get dirty and fuel runs out , and engine oil gets dirty >> with time, etc... >> but .....some people have more problems than other people do. The >> 'psychic >> healing' factor is real. >> You clean and polish your van inside and out ...it will run better. >> You really understand the systems on it and you take care of them with >> methods that work for you ... >> you manifest successful vanagon operation .......just because you do. Or >> maybe it's just because you are super tuned into every nuance of any >> system >> ...in this case cooling system. You notice immediately if anything is >> different or needs attention, and you give it that attention. >> The book is a good read, particularily for those who love aviation.. >> Mabye all people can't do it...but some people actually make things last >> well, and work well, and in addition to the adjustments, parts and fluids >> they do on it .....there is some 'mental force or intention' that can >> make >> your cooling system nearly never corrode - that's not to say you can >> abuse >> it ...but just through understanding, some good workmansihp and decent >> materials used .....very corrosion free operation is possible, and your >> intention that that's how it's going to be. >> Ever notice ......you let someone borrow your van or car that you are >> really into and love and have working very well. Somehow, when you get it >> back ...it is different. Subtly, but different somehow yet. >> That's because they are not 'conducting' the vehicle to work smoothly and >> nicely like you are without you realizing it. The affect is real. >> Subtle, >> but real. People that are deeply mentally and psychiclly simpatico with >> their machinery won't really have much corrosion going on, even with >> stainless main pipes. >> And of course they have to do mostly the right thing in mantaining it >> ..of >> course ! ..but there is some subtle 'thing' that is 'more' than just the >> parts or fluids you put in it. It's how you deeply understand it and >> really >> relate to it, let's say. >> >> Ciao, >> scott >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Derek Drew >> To: Syncro@yahoogroups.com ; VANAGON@GERRY.VANAGON.COM ; >> subaruvanagon@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:51 AM >> Subject: [subaruvanagon] Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines >> >> >> >> It has become very common in Vanagon circles for owners to change >> their coolant pipes to stainless steel designs. >> >> Terry K introduced one of the first stainless steel pipes in North >> America, and other thinner walled pipes were later introduced from >> Europe and elsewhere. Now, many vendors offer stainless pipes, and >> the plastic pipes that seemed so stupid to us because they fail are >> becoming NLA (no longer available). >> >> An argument came to my attention this week at RJES that the use of >> stainless steel for coolant pipes is a kind of an idiot thing to >> do..... a kind of automotive-engineering-101-no-no. >> >> Apparently, engine coolant tends to be conductive enough that even >> though the stainless pipes are not touching at either end, the >> stainless pipes can create a battery (galvanic corrosion) and cause >> the engine to start turning into a more dust like material over time. >> >> I am sure that many of you have seen old transmissions with magnesium >> housings that mysteriously turned to dust on the top, apparently >> because of a battery set up between the magnesium and the aluminum >> engines. >> >> Theoretically, the use of stainless steel pipes could be causing our >> engines to be changing this way as well, through galvanic electricity >> passed through the engine coolant. >> >> This is either an emergency, as potentially now thousands of Vanagons >> in North America with stainless coolant pipes must now have the pipes >> removed, or it is a potential problem that we can manage by attention >> to the issue from our more capable automotive engineers. >> >> If there is an alternative to ripping the pipes out of all our vans, >> it seems that help might be found in one or more of the following: >> >> a) methods to alter the chemistry of the coolant to make it less >> conductive, less electrolyte?, less acidic? such as potentially >> adding Schaeffer's Clean and Cool: >> http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/258_coolant_additive.html >> >> b) placement of zinc sacrificial anodes in such a way as to protect >> the engine, >> >> c) take steps to make sure there are no electrical contacts >> (uninsulated contacts) between the stainless pipes and the metal of >> the vehicle body or any metal part, or >> >> c) just poo poo the issue and announce that we have not seen engines >> degraded yet due to the use of these pipes. >> >> I noticed that the Schaefferoil is available in various sizes, >> including 55 gallon drums, which I imagine might be something we >> could order in advance of van meetings as a draw to attend, and a >> communal religious experience of drinking of the 55 gallon drum for >> initiates. >> >> It remains to be discussed how realistic the claims might be that >> this stuff can stop galvanic corrosion through the coolant water so >> commentary on that is sought. >> >> Here is Richard's RJES.com alarming and thoughtful text on the >> subject that I noticed this week: >> >> http://www.rjes.com/html/material_choice.html >> >> The following Google search query produces more on the topic if >> anybody can spend some time in these links: >> >> "engine coolant" conductive galvanic >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Derek Drew >> Founder, ConsumerSearch.com >> Washington DC / New York >> derekdrew@derekmail.com >> 202-966-7907 (Call the number at left normally) >> (alt/cell for diligent calling only): 703-408-1532 >> >> >> >> __._,_.___ >> Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New >> Topic >> Messages in this topic (1) >> Recent Activity: a.. New Members 11 >> Visit Your Group >> MARKETPLACE >> Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - >> Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers >> Center. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore >> new interests. >> >> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use. >> >> __,_._,___ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Derek Drew" <derekdrew@DEREKMAIL.COM> >> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> >> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:51 AM >> Subject: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines >> >> >>> It has become very common in Vanagon circles for owners to change >>> their coolant pipes to stainless steel designs. >>> >>> Terry K introduced one of the first stainless steel pipes in North >>> America, and other thinner walled pipes were later introduced from >>> Europe and elsewhere. Now, many vendors offer stainless pipes, and >>> the plastic pipes that seemed so stupid to us because they fail are >>> becoming NLA (no longer available). >>> >>> An argument came to my attention this week at RJES that the use of >>> stainless steel for coolant pipes is a kind of an idiot thing to >>> do..... a kind of automotive-engineering-101-no-no. >>> >>> Apparently, engine coolant tends to be conductive enough that even >>> though the stainless pipes are not touching at either end, the >>> stainless pipes can create a battery (galvanic corrosion) and cause >>> the engine to start turning into a more dust like material over time. >>> >>> I am sure that many of you have seen old transmissions with magnesium >>> housings that mysteriously turned to dust on the top, apparently >>> because of a battery set up between the magnesium and the aluminum >>> engines. >>> >>> Theoretically, the use of stainless steel pipes could be causing our >>> engines to be changing this way as well, through galvanic electricity >>> passed through the engine coolant. >>> >>> This is either an emergency, as potentially now thousands of Vanagons >>> in North America with stainless coolant pipes must now have the pipes >>> removed, or it is a potential problem that we can manage by attention >>> to the issue from our more capable automotive engineers. >>> >>> If there is an alternative to ripping the pipes out of all our vans, >>> it seems that help might be found in one or more of the following: >>> >>> a) methods to alter the chemistry of the coolant to make it less >>> conductive, less electrolyte?, less acidic? such as potentially >>> adding Schaeffer's Clean and Cool: >>> http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/258_coolant_additive.html >>> >>> b) placement of zinc sacrificial anodes in such a way as to protect >>> the engine, >>> >>> c) take steps to make sure there are no electrical contacts >>> (uninsulated contacts) between the stainless pipes and the metal of >>> the vehicle body or any metal part, or >>> >>> c) just poo poo the issue and announce that we have not seen engines >>> degraded yet due to the use of these pipes. >>> >>> I noticed that the Schaefferoil is available in various sizes, >>> including 55 gallon drums, which I imagine might be something we >>> could order in advance of van meetings as a draw to attend, and a >>> communal religious experience of drinking of the 55 gallon drum for >>> initiates. >>> >>> It remains to be discussed how realistic the claims might be that >>> this stuff can stop galvanic corrosion through the coolant water so >>> commentary on that is sought. >>> >>> Here is Richard's RJES.com alarming and thoughtful text on the >>> subject that I noticed this week: >>> >>> http://www.rjes.com/html/material_choice.html >>> >>> The following Google search query produces more on the topic if >>> anybody can spend some time in these links: >>> >>> "engine coolant" conductive galvanic >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Derek Drew >>> Founder, ConsumerSearch.com >>> Washington DC / New York >>> derekdrew@derekmail.com >>> 202-966-7907 (Call the number at left normally) >>> (alt/cell for diligent calling only): 703-408-1532 >>


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