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Date:         Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:30:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
Comments: To: Derek Drew <derekdrew@DEREKMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;

Technically you are absolutely correct. Adding another metal to the mix does add to the potential for corrosion. But you already have a mix of steel and aluminum present and the potential for corrosion is already there.

Automotive Engineers have already addressed the problem and this is why antifreeze has corrosion inhibitors. But these inhibitors get used up over time.

The best defense is to change your coolent regularly. You should change your antifreeze every 2 years.

Tom Www.towercooler.com

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone

-----Original Message----- From: Derek Drew <derekdrew@DEREKMAIL.COM> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:08 AM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Subject: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines

It has become very common in Vanagon circles for owners to change their coolant pipes to stainless steel designs.

Terry K introduced one of the first stainless steel pipes in North America, and other thinner walled pipes were later introduced from Europe and elsewhere. Now, many vendors offer stainless pipes, and the plastic pipes that seemed so stupid to us because they fail are becoming NLA (no longer available).

An argument came to my attention this week at RJES that the use of stainless steel for coolant pipes is a kind of an idiot thing to do..... a kind of automotive-engineering-101-no-no.

Apparently, engine coolant tends to be conductive enough that even though the stainless pipes are not touching at either end, the stainless pipes can create a battery (galvanic corrosion) and cause the engine to start turning into a more dust like material over time.

I am sure that many of you have seen old transmissions with magnesium housings that mysteriously turned to dust on the top, apparently because of a battery set up between the magnesium and the aluminum engines.

Theoretically, the use of stainless steel pipes could be causing our engines to be changing this way as well, through galvanic electricity passed through the engine coolant.

This is either an emergency, as potentially now thousands of Vanagons in North America with stainless coolant pipes must now have the pipes removed, or it is a potential problem that we can manage by attention to the issue from our more capable automotive engineers.

If there is an alternative to ripping the pipes out of all our vans, it seems that help might be found in one or more of the following:

a) methods to alter the chemistry of the coolant to make it less conductive, less electrolyte?, less acidic? such as potentially adding Schaeffer's Clean and Cool: http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/258_coolant_additive.html

b) placement of zinc sacrificial anodes in such a way as to protect the engine,

c) take steps to make sure there are no electrical contacts (uninsulated contacts) between the stainless pipes and the metal of the vehicle body or any metal part, or

c) just poo poo the issue and announce that we have not seen engines degraded yet due to the use of these pipes.

I noticed that the Schaefferoil is available in various sizes, including 55 gallon drums, which I imagine might be something we could order in advance of van meetings as a draw to attend, and a communal religious experience of drinking of the 55 gallon drum for initiates.

It remains to be discussed how realistic the claims might be that this stuff can stop galvanic corrosion through the coolant water so commentary on that is sought.

Here is Richard's RJES.com alarming and thoughtful text on the subject that I noticed this week:

http://www.rjes.com/html/material_choice.html

The following Google search query produces more on the topic if anybody can spend some time in these links:

"engine coolant" conductive galvanic

_______________________________________________ Derek Drew Founder, ConsumerSearch.com Washington DC / New York derekdrew@derekmail.com 202-966-7907 (Call the number at left normally) (alt/cell for diligent calling only): 703-408-1532


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