Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:16:42 -0400
Reply-To: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
In-Reply-To: <091a01cb6bd1$2edf15a0$6501a8c0@PROSPERITY>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Well said Scott,
I am so tired of the "I just invented a problem, but don't worry I have
the solution" mindset that seems to be prevalent in our day. Seems to
have gained steam since the ozone layer, Y2K, Bird Flu, Swine Flu,
Global Warming, and now stainless steel coolant pipes. I feel
privileged just to be alive since all of the previous things were
supposed to kill me and I have survived them all! I guess Vanagons will
survive stainless steel coolant pipes as well although that may be an
"inconvenient truth" for some. :-)
--
Thanks,
Ken Wilford
John 3:16
www.vanagain.com
Phone: 856-327-4936
Fax: 856-327-2242
On 10/14/2010 2:54 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
> ( well now I see it's on several lists separately .
> I did 'suburu vanagon' already ..and I'll do vanagongerry this time -
> it's
> longish. )
>
> Well..
> sure ..there is 'some' galvanic 'battery' affect with using stainless
> steel
> coolant pipes.
> 'some' ..as in 'not much really' I'd say.
>
> I'd say ground your stainless pipes with braided grounding strap if
> you're
> that worried about it
> I'll read the RJES piece...and I suspect their water might be harder than
> ours.
>
> I'll say this.....living in the western US - Ca, OR, and Wa and
> working on
> cars full, full time for decades .......I have used this coolant mixture
> with extreme success, and zero corrosion on many cars...
> I mix a quality anti-frz 50/50 with clean tap water ..
> and I add a bit of machinist's cutting oil ..a water soluble oil that
> makes
> a great rust inhibutor and water pump lubricant. I have used this
> mixture in
> litterally hundreds of cars and vanagons ..
> nary a problem with corrosion ever. ..or new corrosion let's say.
>
> heck, I have even put in my clever little mixture on a 2.1 wbxr
> vanagon with
> seepig outer rubber water gasekts on one head ......and a touch of
> Bars Leak
> ..and that van was fine for quite a while after that.
>
> I think this notion that all vanagons with stainless main coolant
> pipes are
> doomed ..
> and that it's a near emergency and everyone needs to rip those out right
> away ..
> is silly actually.
> Or strongly overstated let's say.
>
> By far ....the Main Factor in any cooling system corrosion is not
> having a
> good batch of fresh high quality coolant in it ...and changing it
> regularily
> ..
> on our old vans, I'd say once a year isn't too often, since you never
> it all
> out anyway.
>
> Personally ...I think what you DO on a van is far more important than
> what
> you USE on it ..
> you do need to use quality parts and fluids , of course..
> but it's the 'careful picky care' ...
> the psychic healing factor ..
> the actually fussing over every detail of corrosion you find anywhere ..
> that's how you take care of a vanagon cooling system ..and I swear that
> water soluble oil works superbly ...like a small coffee cupfull in the
> entire system.
>
> There is no engine corrosion crisis in the US from using stainless main
> coolant pipes that I can tell, at all.
> The battery/galvanic affect is minimal in my expereince, at least here in
> the Western US.
>
> we're doomed ! we're doomed ! Rip out all stainless cooling system pipes
> immediately !
>
> lol. ( but I do want to read the RJES piece...I respect the guy a
> lot. -
> thanks for posting it )
> Scott
> www.turbovans.com
>
> extra -
> since it's fridae ....ever read Richard Back's 'Illusions' I think is the
> name of the book ...?
> it's about a guy whise stunt biplane never gets bugs on it, never
> runs out
> of fuel.
> The point of the book is 'magic manifestation' ...
> that through sheer mental power or good karma or whatever ..........your
> machinery can do very well...
> of course things get dirty and fuel runs out , and engine oil gets dirty
> with time, etc...
> but .....some people have more problems than other people do. The
> 'psychic
> healing' factor is real.
> You clean and polish your van inside and out ...it will run better.
> You really understand the systems on it and you take care of them with
> methods that work for you ...
> you manifest successful vanagon operation .......just because you do. Or
> maybe it's just because you are super tuned into every nuance of any
> system
> ...in this case cooling system. You notice immediately if anything is
> different or needs attention, and you give it that attention.
> The book is a good read, particularily for those who love aviation..
> Mabye all people can't do it...but some people actually make things last
> well, and work well, and in addition to the adjustments, parts and fluids
> they do on it .....there is some 'mental force or intention' that can
> make
> your cooling system nearly never corrode - that's not to say you can
> abuse
> it ...but just through understanding, some good workmansihp and decent
> materials used .....very corrosion free operation is possible, and your
> intention that that's how it's going to be.
> Ever notice ......you let someone borrow your van or car that you are
> really into and love and have working very well. Somehow, when you get it
> back ...it is different. Subtly, but different somehow yet.
> That's because they are not 'conducting' the vehicle to work smoothly and
> nicely like you are without you realizing it. The affect is real.
> Subtle,
> but real. People that are deeply mentally and psychiclly simpatico with
> their machinery won't really have much corrosion going on, even with
> stainless main pipes.
> And of course they have to do mostly the right thing in mantaining it
> ..of
> course ! ..but there is some subtle 'thing' that is 'more' than just the
> parts or fluids you put in it. It's how you deeply understand it and
> really
> relate to it, let's say.
>
> Ciao,
> scott
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Derek Drew
> To: Syncro@yahoogroups.com ; VANAGON@GERRY.VANAGON.COM ;
> subaruvanagon@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:51 AM
> Subject: [subaruvanagon] Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
>
>
>
> It has become very common in Vanagon circles for owners to change
> their coolant pipes to stainless steel designs.
>
> Terry K introduced one of the first stainless steel pipes in North
> America, and other thinner walled pipes were later introduced from
> Europe and elsewhere. Now, many vendors offer stainless pipes, and
> the plastic pipes that seemed so stupid to us because they fail are
> becoming NLA (no longer available).
>
> An argument came to my attention this week at RJES that the use of
> stainless steel for coolant pipes is a kind of an idiot thing to
> do..... a kind of automotive-engineering-101-no-no.
>
> Apparently, engine coolant tends to be conductive enough that even
> though the stainless pipes are not touching at either end, the
> stainless pipes can create a battery (galvanic corrosion) and cause
> the engine to start turning into a more dust like material over time.
>
> I am sure that many of you have seen old transmissions with magnesium
> housings that mysteriously turned to dust on the top, apparently
> because of a battery set up between the magnesium and the aluminum
> engines.
>
> Theoretically, the use of stainless steel pipes could be causing our
> engines to be changing this way as well, through galvanic electricity
> passed through the engine coolant.
>
> This is either an emergency, as potentially now thousands of Vanagons
> in North America with stainless coolant pipes must now have the pipes
> removed, or it is a potential problem that we can manage by attention
> to the issue from our more capable automotive engineers.
>
> If there is an alternative to ripping the pipes out of all our vans,
> it seems that help might be found in one or more of the following:
>
> a) methods to alter the chemistry of the coolant to make it less
> conductive, less electrolyte?, less acidic? such as potentially
> adding Schaeffer's Clean and Cool:
> http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/258_coolant_additive.html
>
> b) placement of zinc sacrificial anodes in such a way as to protect
> the engine,
>
> c) take steps to make sure there are no electrical contacts
> (uninsulated contacts) between the stainless pipes and the metal of
> the vehicle body or any metal part, or
>
> c) just poo poo the issue and announce that we have not seen engines
> degraded yet due to the use of these pipes.
>
> I noticed that the Schaefferoil is available in various sizes,
> including 55 gallon drums, which I imagine might be something we
> could order in advance of van meetings as a draw to attend, and a
> communal religious experience of drinking of the 55 gallon drum for
> initiates.
>
> It remains to be discussed how realistic the claims might be that
> this stuff can stop galvanic corrosion through the coolant water so
> commentary on that is sought.
>
> Here is Richard's RJES.com alarming and thoughtful text on the
> subject that I noticed this week:
>
> http://www.rjes.com/html/material_choice.html
>
> The following Google search query produces more on the topic if
> anybody can spend some time in these links:
>
> "engine coolant" conductive galvanic
>
> _______________________________________________
> Derek Drew
> Founder, ConsumerSearch.com
> Washington DC / New York
> derekdrew@derekmail.com
> 202-966-7907 (Call the number at left normally)
> (alt/cell for diligent calling only): 703-408-1532
>
>
>
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> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Derek Drew" <derekdrew@DEREKMAIL.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:51 AM
> Subject: Stainless Coolant Pipes Endanger Engines
>
>
>> It has become very common in Vanagon circles for owners to change
>> their coolant pipes to stainless steel designs.
>>
>> Terry K introduced one of the first stainless steel pipes in North
>> America, and other thinner walled pipes were later introduced from
>> Europe and elsewhere. Now, many vendors offer stainless pipes, and
>> the plastic pipes that seemed so stupid to us because they fail are
>> becoming NLA (no longer available).
>>
>> An argument came to my attention this week at RJES that the use of
>> stainless steel for coolant pipes is a kind of an idiot thing to
>> do..... a kind of automotive-engineering-101-no-no.
>>
>> Apparently, engine coolant tends to be conductive enough that even
>> though the stainless pipes are not touching at either end, the
>> stainless pipes can create a battery (galvanic corrosion) and cause
>> the engine to start turning into a more dust like material over time.
>>
>> I am sure that many of you have seen old transmissions with magnesium
>> housings that mysteriously turned to dust on the top, apparently
>> because of a battery set up between the magnesium and the aluminum
>> engines.
>>
>> Theoretically, the use of stainless steel pipes could be causing our
>> engines to be changing this way as well, through galvanic electricity
>> passed through the engine coolant.
>>
>> This is either an emergency, as potentially now thousands of Vanagons
>> in North America with stainless coolant pipes must now have the pipes
>> removed, or it is a potential problem that we can manage by attention
>> to the issue from our more capable automotive engineers.
>>
>> If there is an alternative to ripping the pipes out of all our vans,
>> it seems that help might be found in one or more of the following:
>>
>> a) methods to alter the chemistry of the coolant to make it less
>> conductive, less electrolyte?, less acidic? such as potentially
>> adding Schaeffer's Clean and Cool:
>> http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/258_coolant_additive.html
>>
>> b) placement of zinc sacrificial anodes in such a way as to protect
>> the engine,
>>
>> c) take steps to make sure there are no electrical contacts
>> (uninsulated contacts) between the stainless pipes and the metal of
>> the vehicle body or any metal part, or
>>
>> c) just poo poo the issue and announce that we have not seen engines
>> degraded yet due to the use of these pipes.
>>
>> I noticed that the Schaefferoil is available in various sizes,
>> including 55 gallon drums, which I imagine might be something we
>> could order in advance of van meetings as a draw to attend, and a
>> communal religious experience of drinking of the 55 gallon drum for
>> initiates.
>>
>> It remains to be discussed how realistic the claims might be that
>> this stuff can stop galvanic corrosion through the coolant water so
>> commentary on that is sought.
>>
>> Here is Richard's RJES.com alarming and thoughtful text on the
>> subject that I noticed this week:
>>
>> http://www.rjes.com/html/material_choice.html
>>
>> The following Google search query produces more on the topic if
>> anybody can spend some time in these links:
>>
>> "engine coolant" conductive galvanic
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Derek Drew
>> Founder, ConsumerSearch.com
>> Washington DC / New York
>> derekdrew@derekmail.com
>> 202-966-7907 (Call the number at left normally)
>> (alt/cell for diligent calling only): 703-408-1532
>
| 
