Date:         Sun, 12 Dec 2010 14:00:28 -0800
Reply-To:     Roland <syncronicity1@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Roland <syncronicity1@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Resolved: Re: Oil pressure light comes on after about 7 minutes.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Ok,

So I installed the Mann filter and drove for 1/2 hour or a bit more, uphill
downhill, fast, slow.  Not a hint of the oil light/buzzer.  That makes the
total of changes as the Mann filter plus 20W50 oil.  So I am going to call
this resolved since there isn't any further work I feel I should do unless
it reoccurs.

Is this conclusive?  To Dennis' point, no definitely not, since we never
identified the root cause, and really can't without the pressure gauge.
There may have been some other cause that coincidentally went away during
this time period when I was "exploring" solutions with the oil/filter
changes.  Not conclusive, but regardless it is pretty strong evidence that
there is something about the filter brand and oil weight.

Who knows, maybe it is the weather, it is 87 degrees here today -- extremely
annoying, since I'd rather be pushing the Syncro through 6 inches of new
snow :).

Thanks for all your help!

Roland

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Roland <syncronicity1@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Dennis,
>
> Thanks for the insights, and the answer is yes, I am very concerned that
> there is a further problem beyond the oil viscosity and oil filter brand.
>
> The reason I am going down the path of the oil/filter is because that is
> the only thing that has changed in the last few months, besides the van has
> been sitting most of the time.  Changed the oil/filter a few months ago, van
> has hardly been driven since then, perhaps every 3 weeks for 3 minutes each
> time.  Then a couple of weeks ago I attempted a longer trip and the
> light/buzzer came on.  So to be cost efficient, and having heard all of the
> previous advice about filter / oil type, I thought this might be a valid
> route to pursue.
>
> Not sure if the pressure switch is correct, but I've had this van for over
> 5 years and the switch has never been changed (and I've never had this under
> pressure problem before).
>
> I am familiar with the overfill problem, since years ago the light/buzzer
> came up on long uphills, so I had read up on the problem at that time.  The
> only related overfill suspicion in that the dipstick tube is loose, and
> sometimes moves up a bit.  Of course if the tube is up, then the oil level
> would show lower than it is, and thus cause overfill.  But I know about this
> problem, and always make sure to push it down to seat it correctly.  The oil
> change I just did last week to go to the 20W50 demonstrated there is no
> problem here, didn't change the filter, but adding 4 quarts put the level
> exactly between the 2 marks so I think the dipstick is working.
>
> A couple of weeks ago, I read about the debris / sludge problem clogging
> the screen.  Yes, but I have no way to check for this (that I know of)
> except the oil pressure test.  This engine has been pretty clean.
>
> I am going to try the Mann filter sitting on the workbench and try some
> test drives.  Again because in this case the only thing that changed was an
> oil/filter change, these are pretty low cost things to try.
> I don't have a oil pressure gauge, that will be the next step, along with
> proper debug.
>
> And no, I have not at all concluded that this oil type / filter are the
> problem, we never know, it could be some other problem that is completely a
> coincidence that it is associated with the recent oil/filter change.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Roland <syncronicity1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dennis,
>>
>> Thanks for the insights, and the answer is yes, I am very concerned that
>> there is a further problem beyond the oil viscosity and oil filter brand.
>>
>> The reason I am going down the path of the oil/filter is because that is
>> the only thing that has changed in the last few months, besides the van has
>> been sitting most of the time.  Changed the oil/filter a few months ago, van
>> has hardly been driven since then, perhaps every 3 weeks for 3 minutes each
>> time.  Then a couple of weeks ago I attempted a longer trip and the
>> light/buzzer came on.  So to be cost efficient, and having heard all of the
>> previous advice about filter / oil type, I thought this might be a valid
>> route to pursue.
>>
>> Not sure if the pressure switch is correct, but I've had this van for over
>> 5 years and the switch has never been changed (and I've never had this under
>> pressure problem before).
>>
>> I am familiar with the overfill problem, since years ago the light/buzzer
>> came up on long uphills, so I had read up on the problem at that time.  The
>> only related overfill suspicion in that the dipstick tube is loose, and
>> sometimes moves up a bit.  Of course if the tube is up, then the oil level
>> would show lower than it is, and thus cause overfill.  But I know about this
>> problem, and always make sure to push it down to seat it correctly.  The oil
>> change I just did last week to go to the 20W50 demonstrated there is no
>> problem here, didn't change the filter, but adding 4 quarts put the level
>> exactly between the 2 marks so I think the dipstick is working.
>>
>> A couple of weeks ago, I read about the debris / sludge problem clogging
>> the screen.  Yes, but I have no way to check for this (that I know of)
>> except the oil pressure test.  This engine has been pretty clean.
>>
>> I am going to try the Mann filter sitting on the workbench and try some
>> test drives.  Again because in this case the only thing that changed was an
>> oil/filter change, these are pretty low cost things to try.
>> I don't have a oil pressure gauge, that will be the next step, along with
>> proper debug.
>>
>> And no, I have not at all concluded that this oil type / filter are the
>> problem, we never know, it could be some other problem that is completely a
>> coincidence that it is associated with the recent oil/filter change.
>>
>> Roland
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> We need to kill this myth about Mann or Mahle filters being a fix for the
>>> oil pressure buzzer syndrome. The oil buzzer is operated by the high (.8
>>> bar/11.3 psi) switch. This switch closes when oil pressure is sufficient.
>>> If the switch is not closed when the engine is above ~2,000 rpm you will
>>> get
>>> the light and buzzer. The light/buzzer will remain on until this switch
>>> closes or you switch off the ignition.  Now since you are OK at start up
>>> your wiring and buzzer board are most likely good. So what happens after
>>> few
>>> minutes is that your engine is having trouble maintaining oil pressure or
>>> you have the wrong switch in place. As for the filter, the high pressure
>>> switch is between the pump and filter, not after. So the only thing a
>>> filter
>>> can do to stop the buzzer is to be more restrictive which will actually
>>> reduce flow to the engine. Now here are the things to check/test:
>>>
>>> Do you have the correct switch installed? Most parts books and ETKA are
>>> confusing here. Most water cooled VW use a 1.8 bar switch. This just
>>> won't
>>> work. Easy check! If your switch is white it is the wrong one.
>>> Oil viscosity-level. Well you say 20w-50, that is fine. Did you have the
>>> temptation to overfill?  The top mark on the dipstick is the full mark.
>>> It
>>> is the maximum, do exceed no matter what mark and for the Waterboxer it
>>> is
>>> really overfilled. Oil change with filter, 4.5 quarts is plenty.
>>>
>>> Is the engine loaded with sludge and other deposits? These can get sucked
>>> down and into the suction inlet screen. Unfortunately for Waterboxer this
>>> usually means teardown.
>>>
>>> A healthy engine should be able to get close to 10 psi/1,000 rpm.  There
>>> will be times when it will not. But if you can't maintain 11.3 at 2000
>>> you
>>> have a problem.  Test the oil pressure with a gauge.
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
>>> Of
>>> Roland
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:32 PM
>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>> Subject: Re: Oil pressure light comes on after about 7 minutes.
>>>
>>> Well, this is follow up from my post a few days ago (below).
>>>
>>> So, last weekend I drained and refilled with 20W50.  I thought all was
>>> going
>>> to be good, went a good long distance on the test drive (to where my son
>>> is
>>> working at the christmas tree "store" in the mall parking lot).  All was
>>> well, but then suddenly on the way home the oil light/buzzer came on
>>> again.
>>> But this time it took much longer, maybe 10-15 minutes.  Once it was on,
>>> it
>>> behaved like before, kind of on-and-off depending on driving conditions.
>>>
>>> So I got a Mann filter, haven't installed it yet.
>>>
>>> And then an urgent trip came up today, we have to get a tree, now!  "Ok
>>> honey, I'll risk it with the van".  (What we do for our babes is just
>>> amazing isn't it.)  So I just took the exact same trip as I mentioned
>>> above
>>> to the Xmas tree store at the mall and back again.  No oil light / buzzer
>>> at
>>> all.  Van just sat in the driveway between these 2 trips, maybe the oil
>>> rested and matured and is now ready to behave.  Kinda like putting your
>>> kid
>>> in "timeout".
>>>
>>> So this is getting puzzling.  I will still put the Mann filter on today
>>> and
>>> then more extensive test drives tomorrow.
>>>
>>> Roland
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:21 PM, John Rodgers <inua@charter.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >  I would drain the oil, install a Mahle or Mann oil filter, refill
>>> > with a good brand of 20W50 or 15W50 Mobil One or good diesel 15W40. If
>>> > that doesn't fix it, you may have an internal problem, but if things
>>> > were good before the oil change, this should probably fix it.
>>> >
>>> > John Rodgers
>>> > Clayartist and Moldmaker
>>> > 88'GL VW Bus Driver
>>> > Chelsea, ALHttp://www.moldhaus.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 12/2/2010 6:48 PM, Roland wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hello folks,
>>> >
>>> > Very odd, the oil pressure light comes on after about 7 minutes of
>>> driving.
>>> > 1989, 2.1 WBX.  It happens every time.  If I let it sit, and get
>>> > half-way cool, then it takes about 2-3 minutes for the pressure
>>> > light/buzzer to come on.  I think the timing is associated with the
>>> > oil warming up.  This has never happened before.  I recently did an
>>> > oil change, so maybe...  And I have been doing some studying in the
>>> > archives.  So, I had bought one of those package deals at Autozone,
>>> > you know for about $0.43 you get 5 quarts of oil and a filter.
>>> >
>>> > So, first, I took some oil out, it was near the high mark (in the past
>>> > I have suffered the oil pressure light on long uphills, so I am
>>> > familiar with this problem).  The oil level is now close to the
>>> > minimum mark.  Problem remained.
>>> >
>>> > So it was a Bosch filter, and in the archives this oil filter is
>>> > questionable.  So today I replaced it with a Napa Gold, which is
>>> > really a Wix, which was recommended, and the problem remains.
>>> >
>>> > The oil is still golden in color and clear,no sign of chocolate mousse
>>> > or contamination.
>>> >
>>> > When I go downhill, at idle in neutral, the light/buzzer go out after
>>> > about
>>> > 7-10 seconds.
>>> >
>>> > The next step I am considering is to get some different oil.  I know I
>>> > am being a bad vanagon owner, but I can't even recall what oil or
>>> > weight I used, pretty sure it was 40W or close to that.  Probably
>>> > Castrol or Pennzoil, just can't recall.  So I am thinking of putting
>>> some
>>> 20W-50 in.
>>> > Am in San Diego, really never drive it below 40 degrees, but this is
>>> > not a high temp / high stress problem, we are in the 50s-60s each day.
>>> >
>>> > I think I have a "frothing oil" problem of some type.  Another post
>>> > said that "Castrol GTX 20w-50 is only $13 for 5 quarts at Wally
>>> > World", maybe not anymore, but I haven't been there is a while.
>>> >
>>> > Any comments?  Thank you!
>>> >
>>> > Roland
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>