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Date:         Sun, 12 Dec 2010 18:25:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Resolved: Re: Oil pressure light comes on after about 7
              minutes.
Comments: To: Roland <syncronicity1@GMAIL.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <AANLkTimnmqJQfDBMWUWi=gOpFyNgXdokyRG3RvRcRzyo@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

My bet is that the oil was overfilled. Replacing the filter removed 1-1.5 cups to get you just below that threshold.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Roland Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 5:00 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Resolved: Re: Oil pressure light comes on after about 7 minutes.

Ok,

So I installed the Mann filter and drove for 1/2 hour or a bit more, uphill downhill, fast, slow. Not a hint of the oil light/buzzer. That makes the total of changes as the Mann filter plus 20W50 oil. So I am going to call this resolved since there isn't any further work I feel I should do unless it reoccurs.

Is this conclusive? To Dennis' point, no definitely not, since we never identified the root cause, and really can't without the pressure gauge. There may have been some other cause that coincidentally went away during this time period when I was "exploring" solutions with the oil/filter changes. Not conclusive, but regardless it is pretty strong evidence that there is something about the filter brand and oil weight.

Who knows, maybe it is the weather, it is 87 degrees here today -- extremely annoying, since I'd rather be pushing the Syncro through 6 inches of new snow :).

Thanks for all your help!

Roland

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Roland <syncronicity1@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Dennis, > > Thanks for the insights, and the answer is yes, I am very concerned > that there is a further problem beyond the oil viscosity and oil filter brand. > > The reason I am going down the path of the oil/filter is because that > is the only thing that has changed in the last few months, besides the > van has been sitting most of the time. Changed the oil/filter a few > months ago, van has hardly been driven since then, perhaps every 3 > weeks for 3 minutes each time. Then a couple of weeks ago I attempted > a longer trip and the light/buzzer came on. So to be cost efficient, > and having heard all of the previous advice about filter / oil type, I > thought this might be a valid route to pursue. > > Not sure if the pressure switch is correct, but I've had this van for > over > 5 years and the switch has never been changed (and I've never had this > under pressure problem before). > > I am familiar with the overfill problem, since years ago the > light/buzzer came up on long uphills, so I had read up on the problem > at that time. The only related overfill suspicion in that the > dipstick tube is loose, and sometimes moves up a bit. Of course if > the tube is up, then the oil level would show lower than it is, and > thus cause overfill. But I know about this problem, and always make > sure to push it down to seat it correctly. The oil change I just did > last week to go to the 20W50 demonstrated there is no problem here, > didn't change the filter, but adding 4 quarts put the level exactly between the 2 marks so I think the dipstick is working. > > A couple of weeks ago, I read about the debris / sludge problem > clogging the screen. Yes, but I have no way to check for this (that I > know of) except the oil pressure test. This engine has been pretty clean. > > I am going to try the Mann filter sitting on the workbench and try > some test drives. Again because in this case the only thing that > changed was an oil/filter change, these are pretty low cost things to try. > I don't have a oil pressure gauge, that will be the next step, along > with proper debug. > > And no, I have not at all concluded that this oil type / filter are > the problem, we never know, it could be some other problem that is > completely a coincidence that it is associated with the recent oil/filter change. > > Roland > > > > On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Roland <syncronicity1@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Dennis, >> >> Thanks for the insights, and the answer is yes, I am very concerned >> that there is a further problem beyond the oil viscosity and oil filter brand. >> >> The reason I am going down the path of the oil/filter is because that >> is the only thing that has changed in the last few months, besides >> the van has been sitting most of the time. Changed the oil/filter a >> few months ago, van has hardly been driven since then, perhaps every >> 3 weeks for 3 minutes each time. Then a couple of weeks ago I >> attempted a longer trip and the light/buzzer came on. So to be cost >> efficient, and having heard all of the previous advice about filter / >> oil type, I thought this might be a valid route to pursue. >> >> Not sure if the pressure switch is correct, but I've had this van for >> over >> 5 years and the switch has never been changed (and I've never had >> this under pressure problem before). >> >> I am familiar with the overfill problem, since years ago the >> light/buzzer came up on long uphills, so I had read up on the problem >> at that time. The only related overfill suspicion in that the >> dipstick tube is loose, and sometimes moves up a bit. Of course if >> the tube is up, then the oil level would show lower than it is, and >> thus cause overfill. But I know about this problem, and always make >> sure to push it down to seat it correctly. The oil change I just did >> last week to go to the 20W50 demonstrated there is no problem here, >> didn't change the filter, but adding 4 quarts put the level exactly between the 2 marks so I think the dipstick is working. >> >> A couple of weeks ago, I read about the debris / sludge problem >> clogging the screen. Yes, but I have no way to check for this (that >> I know of) except the oil pressure test. This engine has been pretty clean. >> >> I am going to try the Mann filter sitting on the workbench and try >> some test drives. Again because in this case the only thing that >> changed was an oil/filter change, these are pretty low cost things to try. >> I don't have a oil pressure gauge, that will be the next step, along >> with proper debug. >> >> And no, I have not at all concluded that this oil type / filter are >> the problem, we never know, it could be some other problem that is >> completely a coincidence that it is associated with the recent oil/filter change. >> >> Roland >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>wrote: >> >>> We need to kill this myth about Mann or Mahle filters being a fix >>> for the oil pressure buzzer syndrome. The oil buzzer is operated by >>> the high (.8 >>> bar/11.3 psi) switch. This switch closes when oil pressure is sufficient. >>> If the switch is not closed when the engine is above ~2,000 rpm you >>> will get the light and buzzer. The light/buzzer will remain on until >>> this switch closes or you switch off the ignition. Now since you >>> are OK at start up your wiring and buzzer board are most likely >>> good. So what happens after few minutes is that your engine is >>> having trouble maintaining oil pressure or you have the wrong switch >>> in place. As for the filter, the high pressure switch is between the >>> pump and filter, not after. So the only thing a filter can do to >>> stop the buzzer is to be more restrictive which will actually reduce >>> flow to the engine. Now here are the things to check/test: >>> >>> Do you have the correct switch installed? Most parts books and ETKA >>> are confusing here. Most water cooled VW use a 1.8 bar switch. This >>> just won't work. Easy check! If your switch is white it is the wrong >>> one. >>> Oil viscosity-level. Well you say 20w-50, that is fine. Did you have >>> the temptation to overfill? The top mark on the dipstick is the full mark. >>> It >>> is the maximum, do exceed no matter what mark and for the Waterboxer >>> it is really overfilled. Oil change with filter, 4.5 quarts is >>> plenty. >>> >>> Is the engine loaded with sludge and other deposits? These can get >>> sucked down and into the suction inlet screen. Unfortunately for >>> Waterboxer this usually means teardown. >>> >>> A healthy engine should be able to get close to 10 psi/1,000 rpm. >>> There will be times when it will not. But if you can't maintain 11.3 >>> at 2000 you have a problem. Test the oil pressure with a gauge. >>> >>> Dennis >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On >>> Behalf Of Roland >>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:32 PM >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>> Subject: Re: Oil pressure light comes on after about 7 minutes. >>> >>> Well, this is follow up from my post a few days ago (below). >>> >>> So, last weekend I drained and refilled with 20W50. I thought all >>> was going to be good, went a good long distance on the test drive >>> (to where my son is working at the christmas tree "store" in the >>> mall parking lot). All was well, but then suddenly on the way home >>> the oil light/buzzer came on again. >>> But this time it took much longer, maybe 10-15 minutes. Once it was >>> on, it behaved like before, kind of on-and-off depending on driving >>> conditions. >>> >>> So I got a Mann filter, haven't installed it yet. >>> >>> And then an urgent trip came up today, we have to get a tree, now! >>> "Ok honey, I'll risk it with the van". (What we do for our babes is >>> just amazing isn't it.) So I just took the exact same trip as I >>> mentioned above to the Xmas tree store at the mall and back again. >>> No oil light / buzzer at all. Van just sat in the driveway between >>> these 2 trips, maybe the oil rested and matured and is now ready to >>> behave. Kinda like putting your kid in "timeout". >>> >>> So this is getting puzzling. I will still put the Mann filter on >>> today and then more extensive test drives tomorrow. >>> >>> Roland >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:21 PM, John Rodgers <inua@charter.net> wrote: >>> >>> > I would drain the oil, install a Mahle or Mann oil filter, refill >>> > with a good brand of 20W50 or 15W50 Mobil One or good diesel >>> > 15W40. If that doesn't fix it, you may have an internal problem, >>> > but if things were good before the oil change, this should probably fix it. >>> > >>> > John Rodgers >>> > Clayartist and Moldmaker >>> > 88'GL VW Bus Driver >>> > Chelsea, ALHttp://www.moldhaus.com >>> > >>> > >>> > On 12/2/2010 6:48 PM, Roland wrote: >>> > >>> > Hello folks, >>> > >>> > Very odd, the oil pressure light comes on after about 7 minutes of >>> driving. >>> > 1989, 2.1 WBX. It happens every time. If I let it sit, and get >>> > half-way cool, then it takes about 2-3 minutes for the pressure >>> > light/buzzer to come on. I think the timing is associated with >>> > the oil warming up. This has never happened before. I recently >>> > did an oil change, so maybe... And I have been doing some >>> > studying in the archives. So, I had bought one of those package >>> > deals at Autozone, you know for about $0.43 you get 5 quarts of oil and a filter. >>> > >>> > So, first, I took some oil out, it was near the high mark (in the >>> > past I have suffered the oil pressure light on long uphills, so I >>> > am familiar with this problem). The oil level is now close to the >>> > minimum mark. Problem remained. >>> > >>> > So it was a Bosch filter, and in the archives this oil filter is >>> > questionable. So today I replaced it with a Napa Gold, which is >>> > really a Wix, which was recommended, and the problem remains. >>> > >>> > The oil is still golden in color and clear,no sign of chocolate >>> > mousse or contamination. >>> > >>> > When I go downhill, at idle in neutral, the light/buzzer go out >>> > after about >>> > 7-10 seconds. >>> > >>> > The next step I am considering is to get some different oil. I >>> > know I am being a bad vanagon owner, but I can't even recall what >>> > oil or weight I used, pretty sure it was 40W or close to that. >>> > Probably Castrol or Pennzoil, just can't recall. So I am thinking >>> > of putting >>> some >>> 20W-50 in. >>> > Am in San Diego, really never drive it below 40 degrees, but this >>> > is not a high temp / high stress problem, we are in the 50s-60s each day. >>> > >>> > I think I have a "frothing oil" problem of some type. Another >>> > post said that "Castrol GTX 20w-50 is only $13 for 5 quarts at >>> > Wally World", maybe not anymore, but I haven't been there is a while. >>> > >>> > Any comments? Thank you! >>> > >>> > Roland >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> >


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