Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 13:41:31 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Front Spring install
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hi Aaron.
the basic idea of replacing any worn out ball joints and trying stiffer
front springs is 'ok' ....
pretty much.
you don't say which ball joints ..
uppers are easy, lowers are a major operation.
'usually' ...front springs can be replaced without too major difficulty.
give you an example of one I did ..
it was an 84 westy with a jillion miles on it, including driving in South
America ..
had one broken front springs ..
and the guy bought a pair of '85 weekender too tall stock front springs )
from me.
after we got the caliper and brake hose aside, and upper ball joint undone..
and tie rod end disconnected, and front shock out, then the old soft front
spring/s came out nicely.
however, butting the 'new' taller/stiffer springs we need to compress them.
There are various ways to do that.
what I use are long threaded bolts with cast iron hooks on the end ..they
are spefically made to compress coil springs. I have 3 ..
and getting the spring in place with 2 or 3 of those compressor things on it
can be a trick...
for sure.
and ...if ever a slightly comrpessed coil spring were to get away from you
..
like you're trying to pry it into place and something slips ...it could take
your head off, litteraly ..
so far trickier than say replace front brake pads.
re handing...
normally aftermarket springs come in sets of four.
You do not want to drastically alter the spring rate ratios front-to-rear.
if you have for example, a much stiffer front end...but stock
softer-by-comparison rear end ...
in terms of spring rate, you could end up with a van that oversteers.
and I should write up a whole deal on 'handling' for vanagons.
what good proper handling is like and how it works dyncmaically.
I have raced cars and motorcycles ..and have up to a million miles of
driving expereince, including some racing ....so I have an idea what proper
handling feels like.
( in a nutshell.......and vanagons can do this stock, with so-so tires, or
identical tires front and rear ...
understeer...some is good...too much just makes the van plow and mush in
turns. You don't want that.
that's understeer. At the other end of the scale is oversteer...the van is
too senstivie to steering input once you get some cornering force going .
You don't want that either. Most ordinary cars are built with a little
understeer engineered it ..it's safer, but it's 'dumb' ...
ordinary drivers can feel the push or plow bulding up ...and response to
steering input degrade as speed in a turn builds, so they know to back off.
Ideal is 'neutral handling...neither understeer or oversteer.
Like you can jam into a corner ...and get the car or van to 'rotate' nicely
into the corner ...
good cars are engineered so if you let up on the power..the line in the turn
tightens..
at the same time ...a well handling car will repsond to power in the turn
....and ultimately you can even steer with the power, and not so much with
the steering wheel..
though that is getting in the range of 'dynamic' cornering...
where all four wheels are involved in cornering ( remember the old 'four
wheel drift' ? ...like that ) .
my point is ..
you know what people should do ..
is they should drive LOTS of different vanagons ..
then they'd know how good or bad their own vanagon is.
anyway ..
be careful about spring changes, I think the basic idea is worth trying.
always run more tire pressures in the rear.
I never recommend 8PR or D load rating tires in front ! ..they make the van
jump around on bumps..
or if you lower pressure enough to address that ...steering repsonse,
'turn-in' gets lousy.
C load or 6PR tires in front ! ...
and everything you can do to enhance rear stability ( particularily in a 2WD
rear wheel drive car ) helps emensly.
that's stiffer rear tires relative to the front,
larger or wider rear tires, and wider rear rims.
Adjusting the front-rear 'stability' of the tires/wheels this way is worth
about 15 to 20 % improvemend towards 'neautral handling.'
I dont' know if many vanagon drivers can tell ( I hope so ) but I can tell
night and day difference with 'more rear stability.'
I also point out that ALL motorcycles ..
all Indy and Formula open wheel race cars ( unless dictated otherwise by
rules ) have massively 'more' on the rear tires/wheels.
if you have identical front and rear tires and wheels..
and particularily if tire pressures are not about 4 to as much as 6 psi more
in the rears..
you can think of your van as a 'bus' ..as in school bus..
it's a long thing that will change directions when you turn the wheel...but
that's it.
No dynmaic handling is even avialble.
but .....and the wheel base on a vanagon is about ideal I'd say , for it's
width ..
...a 2WD vanagon can be set up to handle in a very neutral manner ..and then
it can begin to repsond to dynamic cornering methods.
AWD is trickier ...but the same principles apply.
an example of what dynamic handling ( as oppposed to 'linear' cornering )
is..
on any motorcycle ...
and of course particulariy dirt and track racing motorcyles...
nothing is really even happening until the back end starts to step out a
little under power while cornering ..
when you get into that mode ....things 'smooth out' ..almost like the bike
is flying in a way ..
and you steer with the power ...and man that is fun.
A vanagon can only barely do that...
the dynamic handling 'feel' is subtle.....but it's there if the van is set
up right ..
and it all matters ..........spring rates, ratio of front to rear spring
rate ...
tires and wheels especidally, ride height, anti-roll bar/s , and so on.
a properly handling vehicle goes right where you point it, always.
regardless of pot holes in the middle of a corner ..
regardless of 'anything' almost ..really good cars are just incredible..
I have a 1970 mercedes sedan ...
I don't care what you do with the steering, the brakes, or the gas pedal, or
what the road is like..that sucker just goes where you tell it too..
btw..sorry last comment..
for people that think vanagons are trucks and have truck suspension.
they have the exact same suspension as a Mercedes sports car of the 80's ..
that's coil springs, a-arm front suspension, front anti-sway bar, and
trailing arm rear suspension..
quite evolved for the era.
The Benz has one more part ....a rear anti-sway bar ..
but the vanagon has rack and pinion steering that the Benz does not.
Set up right ..
vanagons car ride and handle and track just excellently.
drive safely, have fun, stay cozy !
scott
www.turbovans.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron" <a.robinson.lists@GMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 3:40 PM
Subject: Front Spring install
Hello all.
I have some questions regarding our '87 Westy. I'm about to be replacing a
ball joint that's failed - which I've done that before on another van and it
wasn't too bad. I've ordered the parts and it made me start thinking of what
else might help the soft-ish front end. Van drives well aside from the bad
ball joint and a bit more roll than I'd like while cornering. Tires are
good, shocks are Bilstein HD all the way around and the rear has been evened
out with .75" spacers
A friend mentioned that he had some moog 5668 springs that he got and never
installed. They are cheap ($50-ish) and stiffer than stock. I didn't find
much in the vanagon archives, but thesamba has a number of threads and there
are a few mentions of the 5660's and 5658's.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=321336&start=40
It seems like it would lift it a little. Not a huge deal. Springs look
stiffer which is certainly some of what I want. Unfortunately I would say
that I know little to zero about what makes a van ride and drive well.
My questions would be:
What does replacing the springs entail? Special tools/beer/friends/or???
Would this be made easier during a ball joint replacement?
If major disassembly is required, are there other parts that should/could be
replaced?
Any ideas on what a shop would charge? Is this something that might be
easier if they do it?
Most importantly...
Would something like this potentially be a functional improvement in that it
stiffens up the front end without having large drawbacks for round
town/highway driving? Or, would this be the wrong approach?
Thanks for your input!
Aaron
'87 Westy
