Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 23:40:31 -0500
Reply-To: craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Strange Vanagon problem in Belize
In-Reply-To: <047801cbb2d9$06f6dc40$6701a8c0@PROSPERITY>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
What if the tank is full of diesel?
It happens.....
Could cause some odd issues....
-Craig
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 11:19 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <
scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> hi Ken ...
> YOU sure should be able to fix this thing !!
> I was just quoting you about Hall Senders.
>
> I like the theory about pinching the fuel line enough to build up
> sufficient
> pressure.
> You don't have a fuel pressure gauge ????
> When I'm deep into weird waterboxer problems, I keep a fuel pressure gauge
> on it the whole time I'm working on it ..until whatever 'it' or 'they'
> things are found and corrected.
>
> I also run them off another fuel tank ,, even gas can if I have doubts
> about
> fuel supply out of the tank..
> that is the only way for sure to determine if a tank is intermittently
> clogged or restricted.
> it's easy to do too.
>
> no spare fuel pump ?
> mandatory to have one.
> these pumps last amazingly well.....150K miles even, more than that
> ever..and they are running every second the engine is ..just amazing...but
> a
> new or known good one has to be part of the parts and testing kit, in my
> world.
>
> the fuel itself...
> all kinds of professional and supposedly genius shops don't think of the
> fuel itself sometimes, in my expereince.
> the fuel itself always has to be considered.
>
> re flooding..
> I had a werid one ...2.1 wbxr ...the idle would just take off by itself, to
> over 2K rpm. Then I shut it off. Then It won't restart.
> when if finally did it started like it was flooded.
> on that one I found the very typical not-making-contact throttle switch and
> too advanced timing ..
> and .....somehow with it flooding when warm ..
> I just 'knew' temp sensor II was screwing up warm. It ohm checked fine
> cold. when it wouldn't start warm ...
> due to flooding, I figured it would start cold..and it did.
> Temp sensor II ..I think they come in two grades...made in you know where
> for about 6 bucks..
> and good german OE type...
> in any case, a new temp sensor II was part of the fix on that van.
> and the fix 'stuck' too ....new vanaon owner, not too savvy a car guy ,
> auto
> trans ..wouldn't have surprised me if it took a little 'technique' to keep
> it running happily,. as oppossed to being idiot proff like they are
> supposed
> to be ..but I heard that the van was doing just great ...two adjustmens and
> one small part.
> if I check half a dozen used temp sensors ...they vary up to 15 % in
> resistance readings ..
> some work better than others, used that is.
>
> I keep an entire independent 'fuel system' for troubleshooting ..
> independent of the entire vanagon ...just a fuel pump, can, pressure
> regulator and tank or gas can.
> ( the vaccum line is connected properly , right ? and it responds correctly
> to having the vac line disconnencted ? I would not dream of working on fuel
> system without a pressure gauge.
> and I like to see the injector spray pattern too. I have gone through 15
> used wbxr injectors to find 4 with a nice sweet spray pattern.
> and plugs..
> if a person does not actually watch the plug fire across the electrodes ..
> you don't know for sure that it is. I have seen many leak tiny sparkss from
> porceline to plug body ...which can't work of course. I've seen plug wires
> be 'it' in the end a few times. There are various low tech tricks to check
> those. I should have all this in a manual on waterboxer troubleshooting and
> diagnosis.
>
> Had one van that would 'try' to rev out ..you could hear a deep moan with
> the throttle opened ..
> like it was getting the air , but not the fuel to go with it.
> that one turned out to be about 8 or 10 very tiny intake leaks ....all
> around the intake runners, the plenum, the throttle body. I have seen many
> intake manifold gaskets where the runners bolt to the heads installed
> backwards.
> I do at least as much checking on previous work as I do on 'new'
> troubleshooting . The odds of previous work being weak or faulty are quite
> high actually, in my expereince.
>
> sure ..pull valve covers and check rocker arm screw adjustment ..
> check for bent push rods, etc. Check compression.
>
> I havn't heard you say anything about throttle switch ..
> 'most' 2.1 waterboxer engines that don't get frequent intelligent competent
> service have non working throttle switches....even vans that have had many
> many dollars in parts thrown at them. Seriously.
>
> you also need to always consider glogged or restricted cat or muffler ..
> that can look just like 'not getting fuel.'
>
> if you are sure it's flooded....that is what to work on of course.
> the main reasons for that to me would be ...
> fuel pressure too high ...faulty ( new ) injectors ...rebuilt right ? ...
> I don't trust those that much myself..
> and defenitely not until I SEE them spraying properly.
> btw..to test injector spray pattern ..
> I just take another distributor ...connect it to the harness, turn on the
> key ..
> and turn the dist with my fingers ...
> when you hear the fuel pump go each time you turn the dist a little...
> you know that circuit is working ..
> when you see the injectors , or NOID light fire .......that's a nice sign.
> Can't go anywhwere with a simple NOID light in my opinion.
>
> for flooding ....thoughts are ....an input to the ecu ...temp sensor
> ..throttle sw, timing ....AFM and the temp sensor there ...
> and you are the one that warned about shorted out 02 sensor coax I believe.
> That could really mess things up I imagine ..though I've never seen it..but
> I've seen some repaired harnesses for that issue.
> I was just recommending a guy today to get a fuel pressure gauge.
> As far as I'm concerned, without one you are just 'hoping' fuel pressure is
> right.
> it's not that expensive a tool , and very useful.
> I've had vans that ran fine ...'until' ..fuel pressure messed up
> ....whether
> from intermittant pump or whatever.
> when it stumbles...if it's fuel pressure ..you can't really tell by the
> 'seat of your pants' ..
> fuel pressure gauge is very important.
>
> as always ..
> two things ..
> one 'it's just a blockage or leakage of fluids or electrons ' ( fluids
> include gases and vacuum )
>
> and ...'don't think component' ...think ....'examine, test, and diagnose.'
> ( I use a lot of 'substitue and bypass' as a strategy too )
>
> I'd say upwards of 3/4 of what I fix on not running right waterboxers
> involves cleaning and adjusting, and not that many parts per se.
>
> let us know what you find !
> stay safe !
> scott
> www.turbovans.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Wilford" <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 7:42 PM
> Subject: Strange Vanagon problem in Belize
>
>
> So we made it down to Belize fine yesterday and I went straight to work on
> the customer's 87 Wolfsburg. The wiring harness was a mess since the last
> several mechanics thought it was the source of the problems with the van,
> and they had hacked and spliced it pretty much to death. I had a brand new
> harness that I brought with me and so in about 45 mins I had it installed
> and thought this would fix the van. However, the van still will not start.
> It will crank over and try to fire but it almost seems super flooded to me.
> You can smell gas, the fuel pump is coming on. I installed a known good AFM
> I brought with me. Nothing. I installed a known good distributor and ECU
> and
> still nothing. Then I checked the readings of the temp II with my digitool
> and it seemed in the good range. The van has all new injectors and I put
> new
> plugs wires on, and cap and rotor. It does do something strange which may
> help diagnose it. If you pinch the fuel return hose after the fuel pressure
> regulator with a pair of pliers the van will start but it runs bad and
> idles
> really high. I installed a new fuel pressure regulator but that didn't do
> anything either. I am thinking that maybe the fuel pump isn't delivering
> enough volume to the engine and pinching the return line after the
> regulator
> is helping pressure build up enough for the van to run, but that is just a
> thought. The engine is a brand new rebuild, however it is a GEX (which I
> didn't know about until I got down here and saw the paperwork). My only
> other thought is that there is some type of valve issue, but that doesn't
> explain the motor starting when you pinch the return line. Any thoughts or
> advice would be appreciated. This van has been to three or four mechanics
> down here and they have replaced a bunch of parts on it, trying to get it
> to
> work. I think I am the last chance it has of getting revived.
>
>
> I will post pictures of our trip and then send a link to the list. It is
> very nice down here, temps in the 80s during the day and dipping down into
> the upper 60s at night.
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice or thoughts you can give,
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Wilford
> John 3:16
> www.vanagain.com
>
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