Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:09:16 +0000
Reply-To: kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Strange Vanagon problem in Belize
In-Reply-To: <047801cbb2d9$06f6dc40$6701a8c0@PROSPERITY>
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Thanks, Scott, Craig and everyone for feedback and if you have any further thoughts keep them coming, I sure to appreciate it. I will be going back to the shop again tomorrow and hopefully figure it out then. In the mean time I like the brainstorming here so I can make a list of things to check and think about. I didn't bring a fuel pressure gauge with me and I can kick myself for not doing that at this point, however is at a local mechanic shop here and I think he has one I can borrow. He said he tested it himself already but I want to check it for myself.
I have checked the grounds and they seem to be fine. I brought a brand new ground strap with me so I may install that just to be sure but the ground on there looks good.
The entire fuel injection wiring harness has been replaced with a brand new one. Before I came down I actually test installed it on my 90 Carat and it worked fine so I know that is good. That should eliminate the bad oxygen sensor harness problem and other issues caused by the wiring harness.
When we came down here I got up at 1:30am in Newark, NJ to get on a flight that left around 5:30am. One of the stewardesses was late to work that morning and the flight couldn't even start boarding without her so we were late getting to Houston already and we only had about 30 mins to change planes. We hit the ground running and took a cart from our gate 10 to gate 19 where our tickets said that I flight would be. When we got there guess what? They had changed the gate to gate 9. So we ran most of the length of the airport with our carryone luggage and got to the plane just on time to leave. Not a fun experience. After that another 3 hour flight to Belize. I didn't want to eat before we left because it was so early. I figured I would get something on the plane as the Belize flight said they would be serving a "light lunch". They had nothing except a snack box and I was starving. Once we got to Belize and got our rental car and cell phone, we were ready to head directly to the van. Driving on Belizian roads was cool at first, but soon became frustrating. Every few miles you come to a small town or just a bus stop. Here there are these huge speed humps in the road. Usually three or four per area. They are so huge that you have to slow down to 5 mph to get over them without ripping the suspension out from under you. After you come to the 100th one they lose any novelty and just become pure annoying. These are on every road here and even what they would consider a "highway" so it really slows you down when traveling across the country like we were. We rented a small SUV, called a Suzuki Jimny. It is cute, and is supposed to be good off road.
We finally got to the mechanics shop around 4pm and I was totally exhausted and hungry. Now I needed to focus to try to repair the van and it just wasn't happening. Plus I was under the gun because we wanted to try to get to our resort before it got dark and that comes at 530pm. Needless to say we didn't get the van fixed as I would like and driving in Belize at night is not fun. You have to be very careful not to keep checking for the ever present speed humps and people who are walking or biking or just standing on the side of the road. I guess they like to travel at night because it is cooler but it is scary because they can be easy to miss seeing.
We got to our resort around 830pm and still had not eaten more than a couple of granola bars and some small snacks. The house we are staying at is a huge mansion, but the folks had not been here since April. They have a guy that stays here who is part of the resort maintenance, but he only had a few eggs in the fridge and nothing else. We explored the house, ate some eggs, and fell unconsious. That was our first day and it was a dozey!
Thanks for all of your input and help. I will head back tomorrow as I said and I will let you know what I find out. The most frustrating thing for me at the moment is that if you need something even minor like a small piece of fuel line, etc. there is not local place to just pop down to and pick it up. However I will be driving back across the country so I will try to locate a store in between and pick up some things on the way.
Thanks again,
Ken Wilford
John 3:16
www.vanagain.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
To: kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:19:01 PM
Subject: Re: Strange Vanagon problem in Belize
hi Ken ...
YOU sure should be able to fix this thing !!
I was just quoting you about Hall Senders.
I like the theory about pinching the fuel line enough to build up sufficient
pressure.
You don't have a fuel pressure gauge ????
When I'm deep into weird waterboxer problems, I keep a fuel pressure gauge
on it the whole time I'm working on it ..until whatever 'it' or 'they'
things are found and corrected.
I also run them off another fuel tank ,, even gas can if I have doubts about
fuel supply out of the tank..
that is the only way for sure to determine if a tank is intermittently
clogged or restricted.
it's easy to do too.
no spare fuel pump ?
mandatory to have one.
these pumps last amazingly well.....150K miles even, more than that
ever..and they are running every second the engine is ..just amazing...but a
new or known good one has to be part of the parts and testing kit, in my
world.
the fuel itself...
all kinds of professional and supposedly genius shops don't think of the
fuel itself sometimes, in my expereince.
the fuel itself always has to be considered.
re flooding..
I had a werid one ...2.1 wbxr ...the idle would just take off by itself, to
over 2K rpm. Then I shut it off. Then It won't restart.
when if finally did it started like it was flooded.
on that one I found the very typical not-making-contact throttle switch and
too advanced timing ..
and .....somehow with it flooding when warm ..
I just 'knew' temp sensor II was screwing up warm. It ohm checked fine
cold. when it wouldn't start warm ...
due to flooding, I figured it would start cold..and it did.
Temp sensor II ..I think they come in two grades...made in you know where
for about 6 bucks..
and good german OE type...
in any case, a new temp sensor II was part of the fix on that van.
and the fix 'stuck' too ....new vanaon owner, not too savvy a car guy , auto
trans ..wouldn't have surprised me if it took a little 'technique' to keep
it running happily,. as oppossed to being idiot proff like they are supposed
to be ..but I heard that the van was doing just great ...two adjustmens and
one small part.
if I check half a dozen used temp sensors ...they vary up to 15 % in
resistance readings ..
some work better than others, used that is.
I keep an entire independent 'fuel system' for troubleshooting ..
independent of the entire vanagon ...just a fuel pump, can, pressure
regulator and tank or gas can.
( the vaccum line is connected properly , right ? and it responds correctly
to having the vac line disconnencted ? I would not dream of working on fuel
system without a pressure gauge.
and I like to see the injector spray pattern too. I have gone through 15
used wbxr injectors to find 4 with a nice sweet spray pattern.
and plugs..
if a person does not actually watch the plug fire across the electrodes ..
you don't know for sure that it is. I have seen many leak tiny sparkss from
porceline to plug body ...which can't work of course. I've seen plug wires
be 'it' in the end a few times. There are various low tech tricks to check
those. I should have all this in a manual on waterboxer troubleshooting and
diagnosis.
Had one van that would 'try' to rev out ..you could hear a deep moan with
the throttle opened ..
like it was getting the air , but not the fuel to go with it.
that one turned out to be about 8 or 10 very tiny intake leaks ....all
around the intake runners, the plenum, the throttle body. I have seen many
intake manifold gaskets where the runners bolt to the heads installed
backwards.
I do at least as much checking on previous work as I do on 'new'
troubleshooting . The odds of previous work being weak or faulty are quite
high actually, in my expereince.
sure ..pull valve covers and check rocker arm screw adjustment ..
check for bent push rods, etc. Check compression.
I havn't heard you say anything about throttle switch ..
'most' 2.1 waterboxer engines that don't get frequent intelligent competent
service have non working throttle switches....even vans that have had many
many dollars in parts thrown at them. Seriously.
you also need to always consider glogged or restricted cat or muffler ..
that can look just like 'not getting fuel.'
if you are sure it's flooded....that is what to work on of course.
the main reasons for that to me would be ...
fuel pressure too high ...faulty ( new ) injectors ...rebuilt right ? ...
I don't trust those that much myself..
and defenitely not until I SEE them spraying properly.
btw..to test injector spray pattern ..
I just take another distributor ...connect it to the harness, turn on the
key ..
and turn the dist with my fingers ...
when you hear the fuel pump go each time you turn the dist a little...
you know that circuit is working ..
when you see the injectors , or NOID light fire .......that's a nice sign.
Can't go anywhwere with a simple NOID light in my opinion.
for flooding ....thoughts are ....an input to the ecu ...temp sensor
..throttle sw, timing ....AFM and the temp sensor there ...
and you are the one that warned about shorted out 02 sensor coax I believe.
That could really mess things up I imagine ..though I've never seen it..but
I've seen some repaired harnesses for that issue.
I was just recommending a guy today to get a fuel pressure gauge.
As far as I'm concerned, without one you are just 'hoping' fuel pressure is
right.
it's not that expensive a tool , and very useful.
I've had vans that ran fine ...'until' ..fuel pressure messed up ....whether
from intermittant pump or whatever.
when it stumbles...if it's fuel pressure ..you can't really tell by the
'seat of your pants' ..
fuel pressure gauge is very important.
as always ..
two things ..
one 'it's just a blockage or leakage of fluids or electrons ' ( fluids
include gases and vacuum )
and ...'don't think component' ...think ....'examine, test, and diagnose.'
( I use a lot of 'substitue and bypass' as a strategy too )
I'd say upwards of 3/4 of what I fix on not running right waterboxers
involves cleaning and adjusting, and not that many parts per se.
let us know what you find !
stay safe !
scott
www.turbovans.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Wilford" <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 7:42 PM
Subject: Strange Vanagon problem in Belize
So we made it down to Belize fine yesterday and I went straight to work on
the customer's 87 Wolfsburg. The wiring harness was a mess since the last
several mechanics thought it was the source of the problems with the van,
and they had hacked and spliced it pretty much to death. I had a brand new
harness that I brought with me and so in about 45 mins I had it installed
and thought this would fix the van. However, the van still will not start.
It will crank over and try to fire but it almost seems super flooded to me.
You can smell gas, the fuel pump is coming on. I installed a known good AFM
I brought with me. Nothing. I installed a known good distributor and ECU and
still nothing. Then I checked the readings of the temp II with my digitool
and it seemed in the good range. The van has all new injectors and I put new
plugs wires on, and cap and rotor. It does do something strange which may
help diagnose it. If you pinch the fuel return hose after the fuel pressure
regulator with a pair of pliers the van will start but it runs bad and idles
really high. I installed a new fuel pressure regulator but that didn't do
anything either. I am thinking that maybe the fuel pump isn't delivering
enough volume to the engine and pinching the return line after the regulator
is helping pressure build up enough for the van to run, but that is just a
thought. The engine is a brand new rebuild, however it is a GEX (which I
didn't know about until I got down here and saw the paperwork). My only
other thought is that there is some type of valve issue, but that doesn't
explain the motor starting when you pinch the return line. Any thoughts or
advice would be appreciated. This van has been to three or four mechanics
down here and they have replaced a bunch of parts on it, trying to get it to
work. I think I am the last chance it has of getting revived.
I will post pictures of our trip and then send a link to the list. It is
very nice down here, temps in the 80s during the day and dipping down into
the upper 60s at night.
Thanks in advance for any advice or thoughts you can give,
Sincerely,
Ken Wilford
John 3:16
www.vanagain.com
