Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 13:27:58 -0800
Reply-To: Oxroad <oxroad@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Oxroad <oxroad@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bumpers
In-Reply-To: <02d501cbb751$5ce226b0$6701a8c0@PROSPERITY>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hey Scott--
From my point of view, the fiberglass bumpers look best. I even got some for
my bus and started restoring them.
I dig the look. I like the "riders" that go on the front doors.
I was going to have to modify the rear fiberglass bumper because I have some
rare SouthAfrican mudflaps that in a proper
application with a South African bumper kind of "mold" into the bumper.
(There is a taper on the flap that would "touch" the
side pieces of the SA bumper and continue the visual "line" which interferes
with the sides of the rear fiberglass bumper a bit.)
Before I mounted them on my bus I got my new Prius. I had a great old Fox
with rubber bumpers before that and didn't think about minor bumper damage.
The Prius and just about every
other newish sedan has fully painted bumpers. In a city that's a huge
deficit. So few people can properly parallel park and the painted bumpers
take a beating from cars that park around your vehicle using the pull
forward, crash, pull back, crash...I'm in! The car starts to look like crap.
The bumpers are a huge part of the from and rear and the dimples and nicks
and gouges look awful. (I park my are miles away to protect the bumpers and
that's a hassle.)
So I had second thoughts about the fiberglass on the bus -- that, after all
the painting and resto would get all chewed up by other parkers.
Also bad city drivers have a tendency to promote you being rear ended.
And even a minor clip in the rear destroys those fiberglass bumpers.
So my feeling is I want to protect my time really from having to restore
bumpers after minor and common city mishaps.
Also the GoWesty bumper seems to offer protection from body damage when one
of these yahoos "bumps" you in the rear.
The chrome would be OK for parking as it has the rubber strip. But I watched
a Westfalia get a minor bump at a traffic
light from a yahoo behind him and that rear chrome bumper offered almost
nothing in protecting the body, engine, and investment.
So I consider the bigger bumpers an insurance policy for a one-time payment
of $600-ish well spent.
Best,
Jeff
83.5 Westy
LA,CA
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <
scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> just personal opinion here of course ..
> I think vanagons with a lot of accessories hung on the outside of them look
> somewhat stupid.
> I 'do' get it about say ...an offroad long-distance touring package with
> say ..
> a big spare on the back and a gas can too ...makes some sense.
>
> I saw one online that was in Australia ..huge roo bar and cage even, on the
> front ..
> and screen over the windshield ................totally looked like it
> belonged in Jurasic Park or something.
>
> so sure ..if that's someone's 'thing' ..put dodads on the outside ...fine.
> But exactly what is the goal with these larger bumpers ?
>
> maybe it matters if people think they're going to hit things, or other
> vehciles hit theirs.
> I dont' find my vans hitting things much.
> Always need to be extra careful backing up ..
> and a errant tree in some wild camping spot can misbehave 'too easily' now
> and then ..
> but that's more likely to hit a rear fender lip backing up in a curve
> ...almost anyway.
>
> I like to preserve the original ethetics of something.
> Supoosing you think say..........some older jaguars have it 'just absolutey
> nailed' in terms of iconic gorgeous shape ..one that couldn't be improved on
> even slightly ..
> when time goes by ........like 30 or more years on an already good looking
> design ..
> they *really* start looking like classic art shapes ..
> so how would one of those shapes look with whatever metal hung on the
> outside ?
> not right in my mind.
> Vanagons are an iconic shape.
> I wake up where I can look out and see nice shapes ...like how the rear
> vents are integrated in nicely .and so on.
> so sure..if that's your thing and you really think those big bumpers are
> going to get you something you don't already have .........which to me only
> comes down to two main areas..
> either you are thinking of 'major crash' ..and the bumpers helping there (
> no help in a roll over or a side impact of course ....just impacts fromt
> ends )
>
> or you are thinking ..need to protect the paint and body ..
> I think i've seen one of those bumpers a qtr inch from the body ..
> of course being so solid it should move that much even in a minor
> imparct.......so I suppose that makes some sense.
> when I see a van with dodads hung all over the outside ......it says 'steel
> me' ........I prefer vehicles that don't attract a lot of attention ..but
> personal opinion of course.
>
> so accesorize all you want or can ! As long as we're enjoying what we do
> here with our very loved vanagons.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oxroad" <oxroad@GMAIL.COM>
>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Bumpers
>
>
>
> FWIW I just did some calculations using the "shipping weight" of a chrome
>> front bumper including the the end caps and rubber impact strips
>> and that comes out to 40 pounds total. That's assuming the chrome bumper
>> itself may is 35 pounds. My guess is the the chrome bumper
>> may weigh a little less, but I dunno.
>>
>> If all my calculations are correct the difference between the stock chrome
>> front bumper and the GoWesty is 20 pounds--Gowesty being the heavier.
>> A 20 pound increase on the front and rear of a Westfalia in the scheme of
>> things seems fairly minor to me. Heck one bicycle on either end would
>> add more. But I'm open to differing opinions. Mostly I'm shooting from the
>> hip.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jeff
>> 83.5 Westy
>> LA,CA
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Oxroad <oxroad@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I just got word from GoWesty that the set of their Steel Plate Bumpers
>>> WITHOUT the trailer hitch weight 120 pounds.
>>>
>>> So roughly 60 pounds on the front and 60 on the rear. Someone with more
>>> interaction with these bumpers may have
>>> a bead on a different weight breakdown. My guess is the rear might be a
>>> little heavier than the front(?)
>>>
>>> This as compared to the fiberglass front that weighs about 15 pounds plus
>>> any mounting hardware, brackets and such.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Jeff
>>> 83.5 Westy
>>> LA, CA
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Oxroad <oxroad@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I just weighed the stock front fiberglass genuine VW bumper. I weighed
>>>> it
>>>> with no brackets on it and no license plate. It weighs somewhere about
>>>> 14 or
>>>> 15 pounds,
>>>> for what that's worth. I was surprised it weighed so little.
>>>>
>>>> I have to say even though we know how useless the fiberglass bumpers
>>>> are,
>>>> I was reminded when I picked the one I have up how flimsy and
>>>> light it is. In my opinion it is nothing more than trim.
>>>>
>>>> At least the stock chrome bumpers have a nice "absorbant" rubber strip
>>>> to
>>>> deal with poor parker's bumps. That fiberglass bumpers offer ???
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>> 83.5 Westy
>>>> LA,CA
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Oxroad <oxroad@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How much do these GoWesty bumpers weigh? I get that pound for pound
>>>>> adding weight in a certain area obviously effects handling.
>>>>> The number of passengers, gear, and so on effect handling stopping
>>>>> distance. And the Westfalia is already loaded
>>>>> pretty good with the kitchen and drinking water and such.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I'd like to figure out the weight of the Go Westy bumpers and then
>>>>> percentage wise what that adds to each end of the vehicle.
>>>>> Seemingly the fiberglass would be the lightest. In fact I have one I'll
>>>>> weigh before the day is out to compare.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't find a weight for the GoWesty bumpers on their site.
>>>>>
>>>>> And while I thought about the liability I dunno how it effects things.
>>>>> I
>>>>> see a lot of SUVs in the wrecking yard with aftermarket and heavy brush
>>>>> guards.
>>>>> I can't speak with ANY authority but on the front impacts I've seen on
>>>>> SUVs in the wrecking yard it would APPEAR the brush guard offered
>>>>> more protection--some protection over nothing in that area. And then,
>>>>> once the brush guard gave way the vehicles crumple zones crumple.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, how about this; Say my bus with stock fiberglass bumpers is hit by
>>>>> a
>>>>> bus with GoWesty bumpers; does that change the way MY crumple zones
>>>>> work?
>>>>> See what I'm getting at? If the GoWEsty bumper in on the other vehicle
>>>>> and hits me there seems little difference than if it was on my vehicle
>>>>> of
>>>>> the other
>>>>> as far as MY crumple zones.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I'm just putting out questions here. I don't have answers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>> 83.5 Westy
>>>>> LA,CA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <
>>>>> scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> re
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "And the rear bumper mounts are not that strong. The bolts do shear
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> brackets do not put up that much of a fight."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm thinking that the engineers attempted to come up with the best
>>>>>> blend
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> severe impact energy absorption ...a legal requirement
>>>>>> .............reasonable cost, and keeping weight and mass reasonable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> granted...the bumpers might only provide very light impact protection
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>> say once things get beyond a minor say 5 to 10 mph impact...the
>>>>>> bumpers
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> not even supposed to help very much, once impact gets medium severe
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also noticed that in the front ..there is quite some good impact
>>>>>> protection and energy absorption build in.
>>>>>> That bumper like piece behind the front chrome bumper....that's the
>>>>>> 'real'
>>>>>> bumper in any real crash.
>>>>>> And then there is that almost massive beam built into the front too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in the rear ....since they are engineering for crushability in a
>>>>>> severe
>>>>>> impact...
>>>>>> and since there's no beam or anything across the back .....the engine
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> trans are what help with distributing forces in a non-server way
>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it just depends on what you want to protect.
>>>>>> Sure a battering ram will protect the body nicely ..
>>>>>> but might not be the best thing in a server where-lives-are-at stake
>>>>>> crash.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd say it could even be a liability issue .........people who are not
>>>>>> automotive engineers offering equipment that modifies the original
>>>>>> crashworthiness . Let's say once the first 15 years go by ..
>>>>>> the legal crushability requirements of the design no longer matter.
>>>>>> lol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and I'll say it again ..adding significant weight to the ends of any
>>>>>> vehicle
>>>>>> negatively affects the handling.
>>>>>> Now if someone would engineer a good looking, aerodynamic carbon
>>>>>> fiber/Kevlar bumper system .
>>>>>> that 'did it all'...improved aerodynamics, protected the vehicle in
>>>>>> small
>>>>>> impacts and a large ones, and looked good .....yeah maybe that would
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> nice. Expensive though.
>>>>>> But don't want to ruin anyone's fun ....so buy those big things and
>>>>>> hang
>>>>>> 'em on there !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> lol
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Dennis Haynes" <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
>>>>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 7:18 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bumpers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course not having the folding trim piece fold up even during low
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> speed
>>>>>>> impacts the body may be protected with those resulting forces
>>>>>>> transferring
>>>>>>> to your seat. So the van may be protected but you may have the
>>>>>>> whiplash.
>>>>>>> Actually this point is crap and a trailer hitch can have the same
>>>>>>> results.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Strong bumpers, bull bars etc all look good and offer some protection
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> once an impact occurs beyond their limits, they will often do more
>>>>>>> damage
>>>>>>> than the original impact.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the rear bumper mounts are not that strong. The bolts do shear
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> brackets do not put up that much of a fight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Don Hundt
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 7:22 PM
>>>>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bumpers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott,
>>>>>>> I think the main reason some folks want bigger bumpers is that they
>>>>>>> look
>>>>>>> better than a flimsy bumper that bends in a stiff breeze. I fail to
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> a larger bumper would make one less safe in the type of crash where a
>>>>>>> bumper
>>>>>>> would be involved. I'm not an automotive engineer, but I would
>>>>>>> suspect
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> VW didn't spec those bumpers as part of the crumple zone, but rather
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> cost-saving measure. If the bumper mounts to the same point as stock,
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> seems to me the same energy would be transferred to the body of the
>>>>>>> van
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> with stock bumpers. They are both mounted solidly to the "frame" of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> van,
>>>>>>> with no energy absorption between components. The only issue I can
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the event of a glancing blow, where the stock bumpers would fold up,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> larger bumper would hold, possibly transferring damage upstream to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> mounting point. Either way, though, you will end up with body damage.
>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 2:48 pm
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bumpers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what I question is why anyone would want bigger bumpers .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if it's safety, making the van into a battery ram won't help at
>>>>>>>> all in a
>>>>>>>> rollover, or side impact crash.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> adding weigh to the ends of vehicle is a disadvantage dynamically ..
>>>>>>>> 'polar moment of inertia' ..means a thing heavy at the ends
>>>>>>>> doesn't like to
>>>>>>>> change directions as easily.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> so nimbleness of handling will diminish some.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and I wonder about the built-in crushability that's engineered,
>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>> intentionally , into the vehicle..
>>>>>>>> it might actually not be as safe with bigger heavier bumpers on
>>>>>>>> it, in terms
>>>>>>>> if impacts from the ends and nice controlled crushability there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sure people realize the idea of crumble zones is to spread the
>>>>>>>> forcesout over those first milliseconds of hitting something
>>>>>>>> ..controlleddeformation for occupant protection.
>>>>>>>> Make it into a battering ram ..and you loose that, I'd think.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>> www.turbovans.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Troy" <colorworks@GCI.NET>
>>>>>>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:25 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Bumpers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Was just looking at the new "big bumpers" from Van Cafe' and then
>>>>>>>> > comparing them to Go Westy's bumpers. There's a several hundred
>>>>>>>> dollar> price difference. Does anyone care to comment on the
>>>>>>>> relative advantages
>>>>>>>> > of one over the other? Considering my location, the Van Cafe'
>>>>>>>> bumpers,> despite there higher price, may actually work out
>>>>>>>> cheaper because of
>>>>>>>> > shipping. Any disadvantages to the Go Westy bumpers? Sounds like
>>>>>>>> some> minor cutting of the van is required.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Troy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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