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Date:         Sun, 30 Jan 2011 09:39:25 -0500
Reply-To:     craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Hydrogen help for the Vanagons
Comments: To: BenT Syncro <syncro@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To:  <B772B274-A3A6-4273-9795-9382A9D664AA@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I fail to see how this can't be considered a vanagon thread. I once built one of these "gadgets" for use on a vanagon. I never really got around to testing it. It currently resides as a small electrolyses generator I use for production of pure(er) oxygen for use in yeast propagation. The H side of things is fun too.... fill a few balloons and hit those beasts with a lighter. They go boom.

Why I never put it in the bus? There's simply no way that the one I built would be capable of making any difference. It draws something like 6 amps and produces something like 50ml of h2 per minute (I haven't done a flow test in 2 years). That's not exactly pure Hydrogen, but rather "HHO" Which is why they call these HHO generators. It's just not enough to run any engine larger than a weedwacker.

There is a great deal of info out there on the internet. And I can show plans and functionality as to how to mount one into a vanagon. Therefore, it's an accessory that fits a vanagon.... just like tires. And just like tires, there will be a legendary debate about what is THE BEST, and in this case, whether or not it's real.

My only point is, I don't see why this is a friday only topic? The guy's building it to put in a vanagon. I think if we are to talk about it, it should at least remain vanagon related with questions like "How much cubic volume of air, with how much fuel atomized, does a WBX use at a specific RPM?" or "Where can I gain access to huge current wires in the engine bay, i'd like to add a ____ resistor inline".

I would however, look forward to a real friday discussion about the topic as a whole.

-Craig '87SUNROOF Syncro '85 SUNROOF GL Turned WESTY BOSTIG in the back

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:53 PM, BenT Syncro <syncro@gmail.com> wrote:

> Friday, please. > > > BenT > > > On Jan 29, 2011, at 5:37 PM, Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET> wrote: > > > So, BentT, does additional interest make this a official Vanagon thread > or > > do we still wait until Friday? > > > > > > > > Thanks, Tom > > > > > > > > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf > Of > > HotelWestfalia > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 7:08 PM > > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > Subject: Hydrogen help for the Vanagons > > > > > > > > I have seen some articles on this before. It's very simple. No storage, > > only what is produced is used by the engine. I don't know much about the > > nitty-gritty though. I'm sure, it's against the oil companies wishes, so > > the gov. would not want it yet. > > I'm interested to know more of it. > > Zoltan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tom Hargrave" <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET> > > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: Interesting VW Article on Future Technology The Company May > > Use - Hopefully it will reach a new Vanagon Soon > > > > > >> Then explain how it works. > >> > >> > >> > >> Tom > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf > Of > >> robby kilborn > >> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:06 PM > >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > >> Subject: Re: Interesting VW Article on Future Technology The Company May > >> Use > >> - Hopefully it will reach a new Vanagon Soon > >> > >> > >> > >> No, its not a matter of breaking tap water into the two elements. lol. > >> Its > >> not a scam either. I've watched it work on several vehicles. As I > said, > >> I'll be getting mine installed soon and will keep you posted on the > >> gains/losses. Until then, I'm learning everything I can from him. He > has > >> his entire place off the grid, and burns hydrogen in his trucks and > >> generators. > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Tom Hargrave <thargrav@hiwaay.net> > wrote: > >> > >>> Is this the system that uses power from your battery to break tap water > >>> into oxygen and hydrogen then feeds it into your engine? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> If so then it's a scam. A local guy was building and installing these, > he > >>> even got on the local news. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Now he doesn't need to worry about making money anymore. He gets three > >>> free meals a day, a choice between three TC channels and all the s%x he > >> can > >>> stand - he's in jail. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Tom > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> *From:* Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] *On > >>> Behalf > >>> Of *robby kilborn > >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 29, 2011 7:52 AM > >>> > >>> *To:* vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > >>> *Subject:* Re: Interesting VW Article on Future Technology The Company > >>> May > >>> Use - Hopefully it will reach a new Vanagon Soon > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> hydrogen... > >>> > >>> a few problems..one is infrastructure ...there isn't a vast > distribution > >>> system. It would take years to build it. Making it is ...........can be > >>> problimatic or environmentally difficult ....wik it.and then there's > >>> storage > >>> on the vehcile..high pressure tanks .....just far more demanding there. > >>> > >>> > >>> I have only just begun working with a guy who has been building 'on > >> demand' > >>> fuel cells for the past 8 years. He is not overly well known amongst > >>> regular joes, but he is sure known internationally. This past week, I > >> have > >>> helped to build and install a few cells in cars, trucks, RV's, rc's.... > >> gas > >>> and diesels. There is no need to store hydrogen on site, other than > >> enough > >>> to keep a steady flow into your combustion chamber. *This system does > >>> not > >>> replace the need of gasoline or diesel, but it does aid in more > complete > >>> combustion, so the 13% burn for gas or 17% burn for diesel, is more > near > >>> 100% - that is the goal, and with some setting and adjusting, it is > >>> possible. Next week, I get my own installed in my Syncro. I'll keep > you > >>> posted on how it works for me. Fuel gains for the people who have been > >> in, > >>> have been around 80%. That would mean I'll see closer to 500 miles per > >>> tanks! Who wants that? lol. Like I said, its an on demand system that > >>> does > >>> not replace the need for your current fuel and you do not store any. * > >>> **While 80% may seem optimistic, 100% has been had as well. Even if > only > >>> 20% occurred, That would exceed 300 miles. > >>> It is possible to have 100% on demand, but there has to be a way to > stop > >>> the > >>> flow of Hydrogen to the combustion chamber when you let of the gas. > >>> We're > >>> working on a solenoid set up that would cut off the flow at once, when > >>> the > >>> accelerator pedal is let up. Until we can get the car to stop powering > >>> through, the 100% option is not going to be available. > >>> Also, it is important to offer this more as a way to reduce emissions > >>> than > >>> to save gas. Same story, but different attention. The guy I'm working > >>> with/learning from, has had to move shop due to harassment from people > >>> who > >>> do not appreciate effort to reduce the demand for fuel. > >>> As for the obstacles, myths and typical rebuttals about Hydrogen > >> systems... > >>> no point in bringing them up here. This works. Its proven. End of > >> story. > >>> I just haven't earned mine yet. > >>> > >>> Is it worth it for you? > >>> What is your current mileage? I get between 250 and 280 per 18G tank. > I > >>> do > >>> a lot of long trips. > >>> Using 250 as a base average: > >>> 10% = + 25 miles > >>> 20% = + 50 miles > >>> 25% = + 62.5 miles > >>> 50% = + 125 miles > >>> 75% = + 187.5 miles > >>> 80% = + 2o0 miles > >>> 90% = + 225 miles > >>> 100% = + 250 miles > >>> * > >>> * > >>> Toss that around in your head awhile. If you're interested in one and > >> want > >>> more information, stay in touch. I'll keep and honest and transparent > >>> log > >>> about what I'm doing and what I'm getting as results. I will be > >> installing > >>> several as I make my way across and around the US between now and July. > >>> > >>> *** > >>> * > >>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:08 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans < > >>> scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> re > >>>> > >>>> Cars like this mean fuel prices will have to be about $100/gal. > >>>> > >>>> Perhaps if all cars on the planet suddenly switched over to that in a > >>> year > >>>> or two .. > >>>> What I think is likely is .. > >>>> that Asian countires, India etc .. > >>>> will be driving fairly ordinary cars for a while.....they're still > >>> working > >>>> hard on getting millions of new cars to the masses, and not super high > >>> tech > >>>> hybird ones too much .. > >>>> so lots of fossile fuel will still be burned on the planet for a > >> while... > >>>> as they work harder to get more of the juice out of the ground .. > >>>> while switch to pure electric cars or very effecient > gas/diesel/hybrids > >>> .. > >>>> I really don't think it's going to get to where > >>>> cars are so super effecient they have to charge 25 times as much for a > >>>> gallon of gas .. > >>>> man ..don't get me started.. > >>>> the sheer incredible amounts of gas and diesel and JP-4 that are > burned > >>>> every second on this planet, 24/7 , 365 days a year ....cars, planes, > >>> trains > >>>> and ships ... > >>>> there is so much burning going on it's silly .. > >>>> and there are still millions of people in Mongolia, or the middle east > >> or > >>>> say ....india ..that they now want their car that they never had > >>>> before. > >>>> and 'peak oil' ...remember that from about 10 to 15 yrs ago ? > >>>> > >>>> Now they get it out of previously abondoned oil fields.. > >>>> and drill deeper and in more odd areas than ever before. And they > don't > >>>> just drill straight down .. > >>>> they drill miles off to the side ...the amount of oil being extracted > >>>> is > >>>> huge and they are still finding > >>>> new depositis of it. > >>>> I sure wish they'd stop all that burninf of fossible fuel though. > >>>> Heck ..just commuting is a shame. > >>>> and Toll Booths ! ..what a collasal waste of fuel and time ...while > the > >>>> toll takers stand there breating it .. > >>>> though I imagine they a fresh air source in some toll taker's booths > >>> ..and > >>>> they're switching to electroinic toll taking, no stopping. I knew > >>> commuting > >>>> all at the same time was stupid when I was 6. > >>>> Pure dyfunctionality. > >>>> and if it ever does get to where the whole planet is screwed becuase > >> they > >>>> are still stuck some in the 'age of oil' ....and there isn't enough > >>> around > >>>> anymore .. > >>>> they're gonna look back and see that many many decades worth of oil > was > >>>> just squandered and wasted. > >>>> > >>>> hydrogen... > >>>> a few problems.. > >>>> one is infrastructure ...there isn't a vast distribution system. It > >> would > >>>> take years to build it. > >>>> Making it is ...........can be problimatic or environmentally > difficult > >>>> ....wik it. > >>>> and then there's storage on the vehcile.. > >>>> high pressure tanks .....just far more demanding there. > >>>> I beleive I read there are hydrogen fuel stations for cars in Japan > >>>> ...maybe it was 20 in the Tokyo area ... > >>>> and a few in Los Angeles ..and some fuel cell cars in both of those > >>> places. > >>>> The real price of a feul cell car currently is about $ 100K > ..something > >>>> like that, perhaps more even. > >>>> I think it's getting 'that much' hydrogen is one of the main problems > >>>> too...if it was really depended on for mass use in transportation. > >>>> Drive less for one thing. > >>>> and ...'the car' is not really BAD.. > >>>> it's how THE CAR IS USED. > >>>> In the southern oregon city I live near .. > >>>> a common person , almost, drives a giant pick up truck as a single > >> person > >>>> 'car.' Nothing in it either .. > >>>> it's like it's a life style statment ..who cares if it's 15 mpg max. > >>>> so if most people drove medium size cars .. > >>>> say Honda Accord size before they made it 'fat' ( just like Subaru > made > >>>> there near perfect size and selling Outback 'fat' last year ) .... > >>>> if everyone drove that size car ....normal people , not familes of 9 > >>> ...but > >>>> that size car, used intellegently, and not spending hours in traffic > >>> ..the > >>>> 'car problem' ...emissions, accidents, congestion, and fuel > consumption > >>>> could be easily reduced by half. > >>>> and ..I'd like to see this., > >>>> Thought of this over 10 years ago ...each car has a large digital > >> readout > >>>> on the back that says how many gallons it burned this month. > >>>> and near the end of the month you go ' wow...look at that guy ...he's > >>> only > >>>> on his 7th gallon this month. > >>>> And then ....Oh crap ..look at that person in their giant oversize rig > >>> and > >>>> too-much-driving habits ...they're on their 70th gallon this month.' > >>>> But and the way many americans are ..they'd strive for the bigger > >>> number > >>>> ..many think it is their right to use up all the energy their income > >> will > >>>> pay for. We do use 1/4 of the worlds energy.......something like that, > >>> and > >>>> we are 1/2th of the population .. But that's shifting gradually as > >> people > >>>> wake up to the new financial reality and conditions I ..I sure hope ! > >>> lol. > >>>> And don't even think about places like Lagos Nigeria where the country > >>>> exports billions in oil yet most of the nation is in total poverty. > >>>> Somethin' aint right there. > >>>> And mass transist ..no no no ....always needs to be subsidized at > great > >>>> government expense.. > >>>> isn't as safe as being in your own well-driven car ....and isn't door > >>>> to > >>>> door. Just use appropiately sized cars intellegently. Shouldn't be > >>>> that > >>>> hard really. Before long our gov will privatize with china being the > >>>> vendor ...and they'll just send each citizen money and vids to watch . > >>> And > >>>> we won't burn so much fuel needlessly. > >>>> > >>>> just use it wisely is all I say. > >>>> scott > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "robby kilborn" < > >>> robbykilborn@GMAIL.COM > >>>>> > >>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > >>>> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 11:20 AM > >>>> Subject: Re: Interesting VW Article on Future Technology The Company > >>>> May > >>>> Use - Hopefully it will reach a new Vanagon Soon > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Cars like this mean fuel prices will have to be about $100/gal. > >>>>> What about Hydrogen? Anybody else running hydrogen on their van? > Who > >>> is > >>>>> getting good mileage these days? What are you doing to get it? > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Robert Stewart < > >>> robertmstewart@mac.com > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://m.wired.com/autopia/2011/01/vw-xl1-concept-car/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Here's an article on the XL1 Concept Car that reaches some insane > >>> MPG's. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thought you all might be interested. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Rob > >>>>>> NY > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>> No virus found in this message. > >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - Release Date: 01/28/11 > >>> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> No virus found in this message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3410 - Release Date: 01/29/11 > >> > > > > _____ > > > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3411 - Release Date: 01/29/11 >


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