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Date:         Sun, 30 Jan 2011 09:10:26 -0600
Reply-To:     mcneely4@COX.NET
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Dave Mcneely <mcneely4@COX.NET>
Subject:      Re: Hydrogen help for the Vanagons
Comments: To: craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <AANLkTi=it8t0D_u9QF1YVNuWvY9OqORv4XNxpUO_OG-O@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

The guy claimed that what he is building is a "fuel cell," but mostly spoke in the kinds of terms that folks trying to scam others write. When asked if the device is an electrolysis set up, he specifically said, "no." Actually, he said he was not separating water into its elements. But, hydrogen and oxygen are its elements, and his objective is to produce hydrogen to burn in his Vanagon.

You say that what you have set up is electrolysis. I would agree that getting enough fuel out of electrolysis aboard a vehicle is literally a "fool's errand." One would (1) consume more energy than the fuel would deliver, and (2) the batteries required would fill up the vehicle. So I am quite confused as to (1) what relationship the device you have set up is to what the original poster is talking about, and (2) whether what the original poster is talking about has much to do with reality, given that industry has spent ages and tons of money working to come up with workable fuel cells for application, while this guy says he is doing it in his garage and plans to install it on his Vanagon. Interesting ............... .

mcneely

---- craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM> wrote: > I fail to see how this can't be considered a vanagon thread. > I once built one of these "gadgets" for use on a vanagon. > I never really got around to testing it. It currently resides as a small > electrolyses generator I use for production of pure(er) oxygen for use in > yeast propagation. The H side of things is fun too.... fill a few balloons > and hit those beasts with a lighter. They go boom. > > Why I never put it in the bus? > There's simply no way that the one I built would be capable of making any > difference. It draws something like 6 amps and produces something like 50ml > of h2 per minute (I haven't done a flow test in 2 years). That's not exactly > pure Hydrogen, but rather "HHO" Which is why they call these HHO generators. > It's just not enough to run any engine larger than a weedwacker. > > There is a great deal of info out there on the internet. And I can show > plans and functionality as to how to mount one into a vanagon. Therefore, > it's an accessory that fits a vanagon.... just like tires. > And just like tires, there will be a legendary debate about what is THE > BEST, and in this case, whether or not it's real. > > My only point is, I don't see why this is a friday only topic? The guy's > building it to put in a vanagon. > I think if we are to talk about it, it should at least remain vanagon > related with questions like "How much cubic volume of air, with how much > fuel atomized, does a WBX use at a specific RPM?" > or "Where can I gain access to huge current wires in the engine bay, i'd > like to add a ____ resistor inline". > > I would however, look forward to a real friday discussion about the topic as > a whole. > > -Craig > '87SUNROOF Syncro > '85 SUNROOF GL Turned WESTY > BOSTIG in the back > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:53 PM, BenT Syncro <syncro@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Friday, please. > > > > > > BenT > > > > > > On Jan 29, 2011, at 5:37 PM, Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET> wrote: > > > > > So, BentT, does additional interest make this a official Vanagon thread > > or > > > do we still wait until Friday? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf > > Of > > > HotelWestfalia > > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 7:08 PM > > > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > > Subject: Hydrogen help for the Vanagons > > > > > > > > > > > > I have seen some articles on this before. It's very simple. No storage, > > > only what is produced is used by the engine. I don't know much about the > > > nitty-gritty though. I'm sure, it's against the oil companies wishes, so > > > the gov. would not want it yet. > > > I'm interested to know more of it. > > > Zoltan > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Tom Hargrave" <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET> > > > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 4:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: Interesting VW Article on Future Technology The Company May > > > Use - Hopefully it will reach a new Vanagon Soon > > > > > > > > >> Then explain how it works. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Tom > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf > > Of > > >> robby kilborn > > >> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:06 PM > > >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > >> Subject: Re: Interesting VW Article on Future Technology The Company May > > >> Use > > >> - Hopefully it will reach a new Vanagon Soon > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> No, its not a matter of breaking tap water into the two elements. lol. > > >> Its > > >> not a scam either. I've watched it work on several vehicles. As I > > said, > > >> I'll be getting mine installed soon and will keep you posted on the > > >> gains/losses. Until then, I'm learning everything I can from him. He > > has > > >> his entire place off the grid, and burns hydrogen in his trucks and > > >> generators. > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Tom Hargrave <thargrav@hiwaay.net> > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> Is this the system that uses power from your battery to break tap water > > >>> into oxygen and hydrogen then feeds it into your engine? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> If so then it's a scam. A local guy was building and installing these, > > he > > >>> even got on the local news. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Now he doesn't need to worry about making money anymore. He gets three > > >>> free meals a day, a choice between three TC channels and all the s%x he > > >> can > > >>> stand - he's in jail. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Tom > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> *From:* Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] *On > > >>> Behalf > > >>> Of *robby kilborn > > >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 29, 2011 7:52 AM > > >>> > > >>> *To:* vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > >>> *Subject:* Re: Interesting VW Article on Future Technology The Company > > >>> May > > >>> Use - Hopefully it will reach a new Vanagon Soon > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> hydrogen... > > >>> > > >>> a few problems..one is infrastructure ...there isn't a vast > > distribution > > >>> system. It would take years to build it. Making it is ...........can be > > >>> problimatic or environmentally difficult ....wik it.and then there's > > >>> storage > > >>> on the vehcile..high pressure tanks .....just far more demanding there. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> I have only just begun working with a guy who has been building 'on > > >> demand' > > >>> fuel cells for the past 8 years. He is not overly well known amongst > > >>> regular joes, but he is sure known internationally. This past week, I > > >> have > > >>> helped to build and install a few cells in cars, trucks, RV's, rc's.... > > >> gas > > >>> and diesels. There is no need to store hydrogen on site, other than > > >> enough > > >>> to keep a steady flow into your combustion chamber. *This system does > > >>> not > > >>> replace the need of gasoline or diesel, but it does aid in more > > complete > > >>> combustion, so the 13% burn for gas or 17% burn for diesel, is more > > near > > >>> 100% - that is the goal, and with some setting and adjusting, it is > > >>> possible. Next week, I get my own installed in my Syncro. I'll keep > > you > > >>> posted on how it works for me. Fuel gains for the people who have been > > >> in, > > >>> have been around 80%. That would mean I'll see closer to 500 miles per > > >>> tanks! Who wants that? lol. Like I said, its an on demand system that > > >>> does > > >>> not replace the need for your current fuel and you do not store any. * > > >>> **While 80% may seem optimistic, 100% has been had as well. Even if > > only > > >>> 20% occurred, That would exceed 300 miles. > > >>> It is possible to have 100% on demand, but there has to be a way to > > stop > > >>> the > > >>> flow of Hydrogen to the combustion chamber when you let of the gas. > > >>> We're > > >>> working on a solenoid set up that would cut off the flow at once, when > > >>> the > > >>> accelerator pedal is let up. Until we can get the car to stop powering > > >>> through, the 100% option is not going to be available. > > >>> Also, it is important to offer this more as a way to reduce emissions > > >>> than > > >>> to save gas. Same story, but different attention. The guy I'm working > > >>> with/learning from, has had to move shop due to harassment from people > > >>> who > > >>> do not appreciate effort to reduce the demand for fuel. > > >>> As for the obstacles, myths and typical rebuttals about Hydrogen > > >> systems... > > >>> no point in bringing them up here. This works. Its proven. End of > > >> story. > > >>> I just haven't earned mine yet. > > >>> > > >>> Is it worth it for you? > > >>> What is your current mileage? I get between 250 and 280 per 18G tank. > > I > > >>> do > > >>> a lot of long trips. > > >>> Using 250 as a base average: > > >>> 10% = + 25 miles > > >>> 20% = + 50 miles > > >>> 25% = + 62.5 miles > > >>> 50% = + 125 miles > > >>> 75% = + 187.5 miles > > >>> 80% = + 2o0 miles > > >>> 90% = + 225 miles > > >>> 100% = + 250 miles > > >>> * > > >>> * > > >>> Toss that around in your head awhile. If you're interested in one and > > >> want > > >>> more information, stay in touch. I'll keep and honest and transparent > > >>> log > > >>> about what I'm doing and what I'm getting as results. I will be > > >> installing > > >>> several as I make my way across and around the US between now and July. > > >>> > > >>> *** > > >>> * > > >>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:08 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans < > > >>> scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> re > > >>>> > > >>>> Cars like this mean fuel prices will have to be about $100/gal. > > >>>> > > >>>> Perhaps if all cars on the planet suddenly switched over to that in a > > >>> year > > >>>> or two .. > > >>>> What I think is likely is .. > > >>>> that Asian countires, India etc .. > > >>>> will be driving fairly ordinary cars for a while.....they're still > > >>> working > > >>>> hard on getting millions of new cars to the masses, and not super high > > >>> tech > > >>>> hybird ones too much .. > > >>>> so lots of fossile fuel will still be burned on the planet for a > > >> while... > > >>>> as they work harder to get more of the juice out of the ground .. > > >>>> while switch to pure electric cars or very effecient > > gas/diesel/hybrids > > >>> .. > > >>>> I really don't think it's going to get to where > > >>>> cars are so super effecient they have to charge 25 times as much for a > > >>>> gallon of gas .. > > >>>> man ..don't get me started.. > > >>>> the sheer incredible amounts of gas and diesel and JP-4 that are > > burned > > >>>> every second on this planet, 24/7 , 365 days a year ....cars, planes, > > >>> trains > > >>>> and ships ... > > >>>> there is so much burning going on it's silly .. > > >>>> and there are still millions of people in Mongolia, or the middle east > > >> or > > >>>> say ....india ..that they now want their car that they never had > > >>>> before. > > >>>> and 'peak oil' ...remember that from about 10 to 15 yrs ago ? > > >>>> > > >>>> Now they get it out of previously abondoned oil fields.. > > >>>> and drill deeper and in more odd areas than ever before. And they > > don't > > >>>> just drill straight down .. > > >>>> they drill miles off to the side ...the amount of oil being extracted > > >>>> is > > >>>> huge and they are still finding > > >>>> new depositis of it. > > >>>> I sure wish they'd stop all that burninf of fossible fuel though. > > >>>> Heck ..just commuting is a shame. > > >>>> and Toll Booths ! ..what a collasal waste of fuel and time ...while > > the > > >>>> toll takers stand there breating it .. > > >>>> though I imagine they a fresh air source in some toll taker's booths > > >>> ..and > > >>>> they're switching to electroinic toll taking, no stopping. I knew > > >>> commuting > > >>>> all at the same time was stupid when I was 6. > > >>>> Pure dyfunctionality. > > >>>> and if it ever does get to where the whole planet is screwed becuase > > >> they > > >>>> are still stuck some in the 'age of oil' ....and there isn't enough > > >>> around > > >>>> anymore .. > > >>>> they're gonna look back and see that many many decades worth of oil > > was > > >>>> just squandered and wasted. > > >>>> > > >>>> hydrogen... > > >>>> a few problems.. > > >>>> one is infrastructure ...there isn't a vast distribution system. It > > >> would > > >>>> take years to build it. > > >>>> Making it is ...........can be problimatic or environmentally > > difficult > > >>>> ....wik it. > > >>>> and then there's storage on the vehcile.. > > >>>> high pressure tanks .....just far more demanding there. > > >>>> I beleive I read there are hydrogen fuel stations for cars in Japan > > >>>> ...maybe it was 20 in the Tokyo area ... > > >>>> and a few in Los Angeles ..and some fuel cell cars in both of those > > >>> places. > > >>>> The real price of a feul cell car currently is about $ 100K > > ..something > > >>>> like that, perhaps more even. > > >>>> I think it's getting 'that much' hydrogen is one of the main problems > > >>>> too...if it was really depended on for mass use in transportation. > > >>>> Drive less for one thing. > > >>>> and ...'the car' is not really BAD.. > > >>>> it's how THE CAR IS USED. > > >>>> In the southern oregon city I live near .. > > >>>> a common person , almost, drives a giant pick up truck as a single > > >> person > > >>>> 'car.' Nothing in it either .. > > >>>> it's like it's a life style statment ..who cares if it's 15 mpg max. > > >>>> so if most people drove medium size cars .. > > >>>> say Honda Accord size before they made it 'fat' ( just like Subaru > > made > > >>>> there near perfect size and selling Outback 'fat' last year ) .... > > >>>> if everyone drove that size car ....normal people , not familes of 9 > > >>> ...but > > >>>> that size car, used intellegently, and not spending hours in traffic > > >>> ..the > > >>>> 'car problem' ...emissions, accidents, congestion, and fuel > > consumption > > >>>> could be easily reduced by half. > > >>>> and ..I'd like to see this., > > >>>> Thought of this over 10 years ago ...each car has a large digital > > >> readout > > >>>> on the back that says how many gallons it burned this month. > > >>>> and near the end of the month you go ' wow...look at that guy ...he's > > >>> only > > >>>> on his 7th gallon this month. > > >>>> And then ....Oh crap ..look at that person in their giant oversize rig > > >>> and > > >>>> too-much-driving habits ...they're on their 70th gallon this month.' > > >>>> But and the way many americans are ..they'd strive for the bigger > > >>> number > > >>>> ..many think it is their right to use up all the energy their income > > >> will > > >>>> pay for. We do use 1/4 of the worlds energy.......something like that, > > >>> and > > >>>> we are 1/2th of the population .. But that's shifting gradually as > > >> people > > >>>> wake up to the new financial reality and conditions I ..I sure hope ! > > >>> lol. > > >>>> And don't even think about places like Lagos Nigeria where the country > > >>>> exports billions in oil yet most of the nation is in total poverty. > > >>>> Somethin' aint right there. > > >>>> And mass transist ..no no no ....always needs to be subsidized at > > great > > >>>> government expense.. > > >>>> isn't as safe as being in your own well-driven car ....and isn't door > > >>>> to > > >>>> door. Just use appropiately sized cars intellegently. Shouldn't be > > >>>> that > > >>>> hard really. Before long our gov will privatize with china being the > > >>>> vendor ...and they'll just send each citizen money and vids to watch . > > >>> And > > >>>> we won't burn so much fuel needlessly. > > >>>> > > >>>> just use it wisely is all I say. > > >>>> scott > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "robby kilborn" < > > >>> robbykilborn@GMAIL.COM > > >>>>> > > >>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > > >>>> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 11:20 AM > > >>>> Subject: Re: Interesting VW Article on Future Technology The Company > > >>>> May > > >>>> Use - Hopefully it will reach a new Vanagon Soon > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Cars like this mean fuel prices will have to be about $100/gal. > > >>>>> What about Hydrogen? Anybody else running hydrogen on their van? > > Who > > >>> is > > >>>>> getting good mileage these days? What are you doing to get it? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Robert Stewart < > > >>> robertmstewart@mac.com > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> http://m.wired.com/autopia/2011/01/vw-xl1-concept-car/ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Here's an article on the XL1 Concept Car that reaches some insane > > >>> MPG's. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Thought you all might be interested. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Rob > > >>>>>> NY > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>> ------------------------------ > > >>> > > >>> No virus found in this message. > > >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > >>> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - Release Date: 01/28/11 > > >>> > > >> > > >> _____ > > >> > > >> No virus found in this message. > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > >> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3410 - Release Date: 01/29/11 > > >> > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3411 - Release Date: 01/29/11 > >

-- David McNeely


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