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Date:         Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:21:35 -0500
Reply-To:     Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: General engine bolt/nut sizes
Comments: To: Joe Luther <jluther@ALFONS-HAAR.US>
In-Reply-To:  <5644821299834C5F8822263A347E28E9@alfonshaar.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The head can be repaired with welding and re-machining. The problem is that this type of failure is a symptom. At a minimum it was caused by the head studs loosing tension allowing the heads to lift under load and the leaking combustion gasses burned the head. If it was only a small part of one cylinder bore, especially near the center, (near the other cylinder) the real problem is the case is no longer true and the cylinder boss is distorted. The earliest sign of this failure is that unknown chirp or squeaking noise that can't be found from the loose gasket-shim becoming a whistle. BTDT too many times.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Joe Luther Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 9:17 AM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: General engine bolt/nut sizes

Thanks for the input. I'll have a look at everything you guys recommend. I just found a Vanagon Bentley on eBay that should arrive shortly and that will help. I'm handy with verniers and micrometers and indicators etc and have a decent eye/feel for assembly work. Plus, I have shop guys that love to gather around the solvent tank and offer opinions while I'm cleaning and looking things over.

I started cleaning on the head that went bad on the 84k engine and found a small burned out void in the head material at the cylinder mount area, it took some of the cylinder sealing "ring" boss with it. I assume that head is toast and reconditioning is not economically sensible?

Thanks

Joe

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of Dennis Haynes Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 1:02 AM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: General engine bolt/nut sizes

As improved over the type 1 engine that the type 4 or Vanagon engine is, the load and emissions differences in the Vanagon application pushed this engine to the limits. These cases do get wiped out from overheating and I have seen my share of the center wearing out so much that the cylinders would actually sit cockeyed after the case was torque back together. I've even seen my share of the cam thrust bearing wiping out. Loose heads and dropped valves are also a problem. If you have it a part you have to check things out.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 4:51 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: General engine bolt/nut sizes

As Joe said, the previous owner disassembled a junkyard engine due to it's unknown condition, not because it was bad. I do the same thing. All of my engines get disassembled, checked, new gaskets and bearings and rings at the very minimum (if all else is perfect). Note; this is not an overhaul, it's a rebuild. Big difference between the two. Also, Joe's discussing an air-cooled Vanagon 2.0 Type 4 engine. It doesn't have a magnesium Type 1 case that flexes out of shape, has main bearing web shuffling problems, cylinder-to-case surface problems, cylinder-to-head problems, main bearing studs with sealing nuts, staked rod nuts, oil pump sealing nuts, or head nut problems (I'm not aware of this one). Even on a type 1 case, overhaulers and racers know not to use the original-type case sealing nuts upon re-assembly. They don't have enough contact area to hold torque properly, due to the recess for that built-in seal. I've been re-using them 'backwards' for many years, just adding a bit of red Permatex or silicone under the washer. It shouldn't leak if the case stud o-ring has been replaced. Same goes for the oil pump nuts; you don't need to use sealing ones, just add some sealant under them. These are getting harder to find anyway. The Type 4 engines have so many improvements in basic design over the Type 1; it's well-documented in many places; It's Jake Raby's reason for being. I , too, have drank the Type 4 kool-aid! I'm currently doing a Joe Cali conversion on a Vanagon engine for my '71 Karmann Ghia. Dual 44 IDF's, Bursch header and functional heater boxes!

Mike B.

-----Original Message----- From: Dennis Haynes Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 10:23 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: General engine bolt/nut sizes

That engine was taken apart for a reason. It is really unlikely that it will be good just based on re-assembly. The cases on these engines twist and turn and go out of shape resulting in bearing problems and the inability for the heads to seal on the top of the cylinders.

With the case halves apart look real carefully at the center bearing webs where they meet. If you cannot see the machining marks and the surfaces are worn then the case is basically garbage without a whole bunch of expensive machine work. Same goes for where the cylinders meet the case.

The main nuts for the bearing get a special seal nut to try to keep oil in. Same for the oil pump nuts. They are one time. The rod nuts should also be replaced. Best results for the heads would be to replace those nuts and make sure the washers are the proper extra thick through hardened type.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Joe Luther Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 3:24 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: General engine bolt/nut sizes

On a related note, is there a source for the hardware used elsewhere in the 1983 2.0 air cooled engine assembly? I would like to replace all of the screws/nuts/bolts while the engine is going back together, the disassembler (PO) just kept everything in a can mixed together because he knew where it went by heart. I don't. I work for a German machine company so I have some various metric hardware left over from projects, I might have a lot of what is needed already.

On those nuts that hold the crankcase halves etc together....do you guys typically use self locking nuts or do regular nuts with blue loctite do the trick? I haven't laid hands on a Bentley manual yet, all I have to work with is a Haynes and it's not long on detail other than torque values.

Thanks

Joe

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of Old Volks Home Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 5:34 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Exhaust collector bolt/nut sizes

Gregg -

While other posts debate the good and bad of stainless hardware (of which I am in the camp of good ole original 1 time use and not stainless), no one has really fully answered your size question adequately. I offer the following, complete with VW numbers:

Collector to Header Pipe N01024416 8x30 (13mm Hex) Bolt Qty 4

Collector to Collector Pipe Going to Cat N01036112 8x65 (13mm Hex) Bolt Qty 3 N90095501 8x15 Flat Washer Qty 3 Note: Place these on the "nut" side Note: I have used N01152520 8x16 Flat Washer 025251200 8mm Concave Washer Qty 3 Note: Place these on the "nut" side Note: I have used N0122282 8x17 "Wavy Washers" 311101463 8mm (13mm Hex) Locking Hex Nut Qty 3

Collector Pipe to Cat Converter N01034510 8x45 (13mm Hex) Bolt Qty 3 311101463 8mm (13mm Hex) Locking Hex Nut Qty 3

Cat Converter to Muffler N01024416 8x30 (13mm Hex) Bolt Qty 3 N01152520 8x17 Flat Washer Qty 3 Note: Place these on the "nut" side 311101463 8mm (13mm Hex) Locking Hex Nut Qty 3

All above fits 86-91

Exhaust Hardware Class 101 dismissed :) -- Jim Thompson 84 GL 1.9 "Gloria" 84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt" 72 411 Station Wagon "Pug" 75 914 1.8 "Nancy" Full Timing Since March 1999 oldvolkshome@gmail.com http://www.oldvolkshome.com *********************************** On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Gregg Carlen <gregg.carlen@gmail.com> wrote: > On my 90 Westy, I'm planning tomorrow to replace the exaust collector > (Bentley calls it an Exhaust manifold, P.26.9) along with the 3 > gaskets. As with any exhaust that's lived past its useful life, the > nuts and bolts will have to be cut off. Anyone know what the sizes are > of the 7 bolts/nuts that hold this thing to the associated pipes? > Bentley shows them, but I can't find an indication of what size they > are. I've got to pick some up at FLAPS or my local Napa, stainless > steel, I would assume if I can. > > In case your wondering, I really think its only the donut seal that's > bad, but that collector isn't looking very good, so I'm just going to > replace it along with the gaskets anyway. Strangley enough, the rest > of the pipes (and > cat/muffler) look in good shape. > > TIA, > Gregg > 90 Westy


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