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Date:         Tue, 22 Feb 2011 13:08:41 -0800
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: air cooled piston weight/cylinder question
Comments: To: Joe Luther <jluther@alfons-haar.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=original

Hey Joe, Sure would help if the weather would cooperate for you. nice to get your thoughtful note back.

re 'the different piston' ... I'd compare it very carefully to the other 3 ..especially wrist pin to top of piston distance. And overall height. if it physically and dimensionally is the same .......I wouldn't be too worried. I don't know if they still have scales at the post office .. but if they still do that, like in the main area where the PO boxes are .. weight your pistons there ! though, come to think if it, at least my small post office doesn't anymore.

'the thing' about the john muir book is .. it's for backyard mechanics.. it's for kitchen table air-cooled engine rebuilds. It's brillinatly written and illustrated. its' so good .. that even if one doesn't care at all about cars , it's worth studying. If I was a professor of a class on writing and illustrating, and communitcating clearly, it would be mandatory to study. I'm sure you can get a used copy at Amazon easily. I have more than one, If you are interested, I'll sell you one . it's like 'the real dope' for home mechanics with air-cooled VW engines. There are several editions. Youd' want a late edition that covers your Type IV engine .. but even an early book will cover principles just fine for you.

the bently ..that's mostly about specifications for people who already know what they are doing. Haynes ....somewhat better. And aimed at the home technician. I don't think 'that' highly of Haynes manuals though. Far far better than nothing of course.

I always clean and repaint all the non-aluminum parts on the engine myself. All the sheet metal, and the metal coolant pipes on waterboxers and diesels, etc.

I really like the affect 'Zero Rust' paint has ...a spray 'rust converting' paint. Great stuff.

have fun ! scott

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Luther" <jluther@alfons-haar.us> To: "'Scott Daniel - Turbovans'" <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> Cc: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:29 PM Subject: RE: Re: air cooled piston weight/cylinder question

> Scott - > > Thanks for the opinion and information. > > Type IV air cooled CV code engine. > > Pistons are out of the cylinders with wrist pins installed, but kept with > the mating cylinders. > > You keep referring to the John Muir book and I only have one for the > Rabbit. > My air cooled version was lost years ago. I do now have a Bentley, > though. > > > I plan on getting new rings and reusing the pistons and cylinders. If all > pistons were the same, I'd not be worried and never mentioned it but the + > marking and one being visually different concerns me. I can check piston > to > cylinder bore clearance and piston/wrist pin weight and the ring to groove > clearance. Big ends of the rods are still on the crankshaft, everything > else is apart. > > I'm planning on going very slowly and being extremely careful. I've been > cleaning and inspecting everything as I go along, today at lunch I tanked > and cleaned the fan housing halves. Next will be the tin. I would like > to > paint everything before it gets reinstalled and the weather will affect > that. Actually, I have no choice but to go slowly having two kids and > work. > > > What I would like at the end of the day is to have this engine get me > around > a few summers while I gather parts to redo the other engine completely. I > probably jumped on this van before I was totally ready but it seemed to > have > a lot of potential and a lot of spares, spares seem to be really important > in Vanagon land. > > I'm still waiting to get it home. More ice yesterday and the driveway is > back to luge status. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans [mailto:scottdaniel@turbovans.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:57 PM > To: Joe Luther; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: Re: Re: air cooled piston weight/cylinder question > > re > With 60k and 84k on the engines, I hate to >> think I would have to, is that really a mileage point where this >> engine would be worn out internally to the point where they would need > replacing? > > Type IV air-cooled right ? > the pistons and cylinders are not the weak parts. > The heads will likely fail long before much wears with the pistons and > cylinders and rings. > new rings are always a good idea ...mandatory in my opinion, if the > pistons > have been taken out of the barrels, unless they are new. If used...new > rings. > > you could check piston to barrel clearance. That's how loose or tightly > the > bare piston fits in the barrel. > I would expect yours to be within spec. The pistons and barrels are not > the > weak part at all. > > the bottom ends are pretty good. > the heads are the weak area I believe. > > if there isn't money for new pistons and cylinders.. > the logical thing to do, seems to me is ....do a very careful good job of > assembling what you have. > With new rings. > it's a whole other step ...but one can remove the rods, inspect the rod > bearings, check oil clearance with plasticguage ( with new rod brgs > preferred...or the same used ones .. > but new rod brgs are not expensive ) > if you know it has good rod bearings with oil clearance in spec ....and > new rod nuts or bolts, whatever is recommended there ... > and decent piston clearance and new rings .. > and fresh valve work ....you'll be fine. > > and if they idea is to make it 'the perfect near racing grade engine that > I > won't have to touch for 8 years" .. > that's not practical since the need to keep expenses down has been > expressed... > > so just do a careful good job. > If I was very worried about that one piston ..I'd compare weight with the > other three.. > ( have you read John Muir on piston balancing in the Idiot's Guide ? ..you > should ) . > > Make sure the odd piston is with its barrel if possible, of course. > > now don't tell anyone this ... > ( I hesitate to tell people my various unofficial tricks I've used over > the > decades as people who don't know better might thing ..since everything is > not ALL NEW and perfectly machine shop balanced etc etc ) that long ago . > and several times I have used a not perfectly matching piston ..... > carefully fitted to it's barrel, and with new rings and very careful > workmanship .. > and it worked just super fine for years and years. > > I even , when I really fuss over some little thing ....I even imagine > years > in the future and saying 'oh yeah.....I forgot all about that, that little > aspect I was worried about." > > so if you're trying to keep costs down ..just do good careful work with > what > it there ... > it's like this .. > if it doesn't work out this engine .. > it is far far more likely that some careless ( no reflection on you > ...just > reporting on what I see,..in litterally hundreds of not a thousand > engines > ) ...far more likely that some workmanship carelessness will lead to a > problem than one piston is .0001 grams lighter or heavier than the others. > > clearances are important .. > those you need to check carefully, in all aspects ...rings in piston ring > grooves, piston in barrel, rod bearing oil clearance if you do that far > into > the engine ....etc/ > > Believe me ..it's in the Workmanship...that's where you get your results. > The parts matter.. > and have to be decent and useable ...but the parts themselves don't matter > that much compared to really great workmanship,..within reason of course. > > so get started on it already ! > lol. > Scott > www.turbovans.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Luther" <jluther@ALFONS-HAAR.US> > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 9:16 AM > Subject: Re: air cooled piston weight/cylinder question > > >> Thanks for the information, Dennis. I'll definitely check into the Total >> Seal rings. >> >> The 93 97 pistons are Mahle, I found the ID cast into the underside of >> the >> piston. The other piston is definitely different, putting it under the >> scope >> here at work I found a 93,98 on the top as well as a KS logo, KS is also >> cast into the inside of the piston body so it should be a Kolbenschmidt. >> I >> would be happier finding another Mahle 93 97 - piston/cylinder set on the >> other engine to replace it (assuming the cylinder condition), it just >> looks >> different. Maybe it was the only one the PO cleaned. >> >> The case is definitely going to be reused as are the cylinders and >> pistons, >> I can't afford to replace them. With 60k and 84k on the engines, I hate >> to >> think I would have to, is that really a mileage point where this engine >> would be worn out internally to the point where they would need >> replacing? >> >> That was a major selling point on the project, the inclusion/availablity >> of >> two engines with known low miles. The body and interior are very good, >> the >> engines were the tipping point..... >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:17 AM >> To: 'Joe Luther'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> Subject: RE: air cooled piston weight/cylinder question >> >> On the air cooled engines the piston-cylinder sets really are consumables >> and being matched sets is critical. There have been different suppliers >> and >> even Mahle has offered different piston materials such as cast or forged. >> While forged is lighter-stronger they have to run with more clearance >> making >> piston slap noises more of an issue. >> >> The reason the pistons have to face in one direction (the arrow) is that >> the >> pin is slightly offset to avoid piston slap noises. Honing the cylinders >> even a couple thousands will defeat some of this and piston slap noises >> will >> prevail. In the past year I have come across three newly rebuilt >> Waterboxer >> engines that made these noises just above idle. >> >> If you really think the case is usable and you don't want practice >> changing >> engines consider getting a new P+C set. Although they come with rings. >> You >> may also want to consider "Total Seal" rings. You can also by the 2nd >> ring >> from them. Their 2nd ring is a two piece gapless design. This virtually >> eliminates blow-by losses. >> >> Dennis >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf >> Of >> Joe Luther >> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 6:22 PM >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> Subject: air cooled piston weight/cylinder question >> >> I've started going through the disassembled 60k mile spare engine I got >> with >> my Vanagon project (2.0 air cooled). I also got my Bentley manual today. >> >> Today I worked on the pistons and cylinders, cleaning/stoning and looking >> for the markings on the piston crown and condition of the cylinder bores. >> Good news is that 3 pistons have identical markings, "93 97", "-" for >> weight, the arrow for orientation, and what appears to be a manufacturers >> logo at the bottom. The third piston has a "+" for weight, no 93 97, and >> a >> different manufacturer. It was very clean on top, the others had buildup >> on >> top. The cylinder bores for the 3 identical pistons are gorgeous, I can >> still see the crosshatching. The cylinder bore that mates with this odd >> piston has almost a chromed appearance and the crosshatch is much less >> visible. Also, the cylinder body has a 5 digit number beginning in 8, >> (maybe 85587) that appears to be acid etched in the outside of the >> cylinder >> body. I thought all pistons had to be marked the same weight class, + >> or - >> ? >> >> I'm planning on looking at the 84k motor tomorrow to see if one of the >> pistons on that engine has a 93 97 marking with the - weight class and >> good >> piston crosshatching, and if so, swap cylinder and piston over. >> >> My plan was to replace rings (I broke one oil ring getting it off so I'll >> need replace them to anyway) and I was going to rehone the cylinders but >> I >> am thinking not because the only difference I can see on the 3 'better' >> cylinders is the coloration of the cylinder wall outside of piston >> travel.....the crosshatch appears the same. The odd cylinder could get >> honed but that would still leave me with the piston that is a mismatch. >> That doesn't seem right. >> >> Any comments/suggestions on the above? >> >> TIA >> >> Joe >> >> PS - the driveway is no longer a luge and I took down the dead trees >> threatening the parking area so the Vanagon can finally come home >> tomorrow. >> >> Technical Manager >> Alfons Haar Inc. >> 150 Advanced Dr. >> Springboro, Ohio 45066 >> 937.560.2031 main >> 937.560.2032 fax >> 937.560.2037 direct >> An ISO 9000:2008 certified organization > > >


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