Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:39:56 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Fix or replace? - was Surface Rust on Gas Tank (with pics)
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hi ..
obviously..
wasting time with used tanks that don't stay working is not so fun.
my main issue ......
is about quality of parts we have access to these days.
I have to seek out suppliers that can stil get good german parts ..
not always an easy thing.
I get to know parts stores pretty well in my area ...
and they have a 'problem' in that most of their customers are looking for
the *cheapest* part.
so they are almost needing to stock two versions of every part ..the cheap
one, and a good one.
They probably get asked for a 'low price' more than they do for 'a really
high quality part' ..
so they tend to stock the cheap stuff,
it's a real problem for them.
and ..even my long time main supplier ...I've gotten say, vanagon rear wheel
bearings from them for years and years .....german ones ..now all of a
sudden ....their from a well known asian country that often makes very
inexpesnive and cheap products. So I had to send those back.
*Fortunately* another suppler of VW parts here still knows where to find
good german parts and supply them to me at a decent price.
regarding gas tanks ...
I will always go for two things FIRST ...quality, and service.
Somebody who is sharp at what they do ..
knows parts and VW's inside and out ...is eager ..............and supplies
good stuff.
And I am happy to pay a bit more for a good part.
since I sometimes even get the wrong part from my long-time suppler ...I
know tell them I am willing to pay extra to get the Right Part even.
There is one vanagon vendor that seems to me ..to be more focused on 'low
price.'
And sure ...that IS what many home vanagon techs want ...I suppose ......I
don't get it.
say a bargain price gas tank is ......around 160 bucks ..
( I think a few years ago 'standard' aftermarket vanagon gas tanks were
about 200 bucks ) ...
now if that tank works just fine ...fine, no problem.
but if it's from Tawain or wheverever and is specifically built to be 'lower
priced' ....
I would expect quality has to be cut somewhere ..
gague of metal, qualty of metal, carefullness of construction etc.
Personally .....I would prefer to pay more for a tank I believe is made
better.
And afterall...
if a slightly more expesnive tank is better made and longer lasting .
then it would be false economy to get a cheaper tank, in the long run.
You can't always tell of course ....'higher price' by itself does not
neccessarily mean 'better' ..but it should.
in my own business ...I never ever use 'low price' to attract customers.
I use 'sheer intention to do the best job possible and deliver good value.'
that's a key word ...'value' ..
'value' to me means you are getting the most for what you pay ..and that
that investment will 'stick.'
given that perception ...then I would want the better made longer lasting
gas tank .....that would be 'value' to me.
for some .....it might me low price.
Maybe they just want to get it running and know they'll sell it ..so their
goal is only say a few years of good use, not 10 or more years of good
service out of it.
I do buy bargain priced tools ...*sometimes* ..half the time I regaret it.
I've gotten some fine engine stands for the price at HF ...love that kind of
stuff.
I've also gotten some pure junk from them ....dolley wheels that are not
even close to round for example.
So there is risk with 'low price' often.
that's what I am getting at.
and frankly ...
for some parts pushing the price thing down has gone too far.
What good is a new part that doesn't even work or fit right ..or doesn't
last very well ?
not much to me.
take coolant pressure bottle level sensors . I think I've paid $ 2.50 for
one of those from my long time wholesale supplier. Where do you think those
are made ??
same for Temp Sensor II gizmo's.
I think it's that part ..on Van Cafe's site ..they mention ..'we sell the OE
part .'
I think the price difference between elcheapo off shore made one and OE is 6
versus 25 dollars.
Some will want the cheap ..some the good one.
I mainly want high quality. ...and a fair price.
that's what most people want ..those two elements exactly ...'good value'
....'fair price.'
A major thing that is missing .....a lot ..is 'education.'
here's how a lot of shops quote a job ..or try to sell a job...
they just lay the 'big number' on the customer ..
'your wbxr engine's heads are shot..........it's $ 2,500-plus to repair.'
that gives people little choice...and no thought that the shop cares what a
big problem that is for the custoemr. So often ..people will even bail on
the van, or just park it etc.
On the other hand ...
if the shop was considerate enough, and caring enough, and intellegent
enough to *explain* the various possible levels of repairs .......and the
ramifications and risks of each level of repair ..
and whatever options there are ...
the customer could tell they care and are invested and intersted in
delivering those two key things..
good value at a fair price.
Actually ...that is SO RARE in the service industry ..
that those who do that will get more business than they can ever handle.
That's 'personal relationship' going on too.
If I was selling parts as my main business...
I would do a lot of propaganda showing why what I offer is a very fair deal.
And I would sure not make 'low price' an important focus.
if ever anyone calls asking for a price on a job ...and I can tell they are
price shopping ..
I just tell them ..I am not trying to be the cheapest shop in town ..but the
best, the most caring who tries like hell to delver great value, results and
service.
that whole 'low price thing' ...
hey ...we do the fastest cheapest water pump jobs in town !!
that means you have to do fast slopppy work.......more or less.
and ...how many of say 10 cheap water pump jobs are going to really 'stick'.
Not all of them, that's for sure.
then.....you get pissed off customers ..
because ......
the bottom line is .............the shop didn't sell the job right.
the right way to sell a cheap job is to make sure they understand it's *all
about* keeping it cheap ..and you takes your chances ...if it fires up and
doesn't overheat going aroudn the block ....we're done.
but of course they don't sell it that way.
just in one 13 year period of my career I estimate I did 7,000 car jobs, in
Sausalito Ca, 1986 to 1999.
All kinds of repair ..brake jobs, timing belts, ....head jobs, water
pumps...electrical ..
etc on everyting ..honda, toyota, jaguar, mercedes .....vovlo , Hyundai,
subaru ..etc. etc. etc etc...
and ..
THE ONE THING I learned more than anything ..it's all about *how you sell
the job* .
that is where you make or break it right there ( and of course workmanship
has to be basically perfect too ) .
Sorry ..got carried away ..
so ...sure ...go ahead with the price point gas tank ..
and most of the tme it will work out.
AND if they really are decent at a lower price ...fine !
it's the stuff that genuinely is not that good even when new that I want to
see not happening.
that's what you are hearing in my statements.
last paragraph ...you really don't have a lot to go on ..
I invested in a very bargain price 1.9 diesel head .( so far not used on an
engine ).
the guy I bought it from said........'I have not had any customers having
any problems with them.'
when I asked on line about this ..a very experienced diesel only tech said
...
'don't do it. I had one fail in 5,000 miles on a customer's van.'
THAT is what I am getting at ...cheap stuff shouldn't even be around as far
as I'm concerned.
I'm fine with things that are built well..
and the price is kept down some ..no problem.
it's the stuff that you can't trust ...or that's just a bit too cheaply made
that I'm against.
about 'educating' and 'selling the job right' ...
if I sell that head ...
I'll be telling them.....".it's likely from you-know-where ...and you are
taking a chance. But the price is low."
( < and for some low dollar guy...that might be fine.
heck ...they might even say years later it worked out just fine , but I know
there is risk.>
of of course ..if it only cost 1/3 of what a new german one costs, but it
blows up in a year say ..
you havn't saved any money.
*Quality* baby ...........nothin' like it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob" <becida@COMCAST.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Fix or replace? - was Surface Rust on Gas Tank (with pics)
> Scott,
> A lot of people pay attention to what you say & when you come out and
> talk against brand new tanks there are some who will say "Well that
> Scott on the VW list said 'the quality isn't all that great' so I
> guess I should just mess with this used tank or try another used tank."
>
> The thing is you have not had a problem with a new tank... How many
> times does someone have to pull a used tank and fix 'it again' before
> it's time to take a chance with an aftermarket than that was not made
> by Germans 20 years ago?
>
> Anyone want me to tell you about the day I spent 'fixing' a caliper
> for a Rabbit (broken bleeder) that I could have replaced for $15 but
> never checked on the price? How about the radiators I've tried
> to'fix' when they started leaking? FWIW when rusty fuel tanks start
> leaking they never stop, on the bright side you get good at pulling them
> out..
>
> If you have questions about the fuel tank or the radiator or the
> brake bleeder components or anything (is it a pain in the butt to get
> to?) see what a new one costs. A 20 or 30 year old part on your van
> may be ready for replacement.
>
> Rob
> becida@comcast.net
>
>
>
>
>
> At 3/13/2011 03:18 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
>>I'm thinking more in terms of gauge of metal..
>>or quality of build.
>>
>>there were a few genuine faulty tanks at some point I believe ...
>>I remember seeing a picture of an internal line that wasn't built
>>right. in one.
>>
>>mainly .........I'm not saying there are likely to be faulty new ..
>>but just not as well made or long lasting as the original ones from
>>the fatherland.
>>
>>......like many modern aftermarket parts are. Many are not as well
>>made as the original ones.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob" <becida@comcast.net>
>>To: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>;
>><vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 2:54 PM
>>Subject: Re: Re: Fix or replace? - was Surface Rust on Gas Tank (with
>>pics)
>>
>>
>>>New tanks are problematic? ok, the first I've heard of this one...
>>>How many people out there have gotten BAD NEW tanks? How many bad
>>>ones have you dealt with Scott (vs new tanks with zero problems)?
>>>
>>>The one I bought from Van-Cafe was great!
>>>
>>>Rob
>>>becida@comcast.net
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>At 3/13/2011 02:40 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
>>>>very true ..
>>>>one factor though ..
>>>>the quality of new aftermarket vanagon gas tanks isn't all that
>>>>great sometimes.
>>>>
>>>>personally...I'd go for................ my first preference...would be
>>>>...
>>>>a really good used vanagon gas tank with the later style smaller
>>>>diameter plastic fuel filler neck.
>>>>Those are a breeze to remove and install...the larger metal ones
>>>>used on early tanks can be a real PIA.
>>>>
>>>>also be aware that while then can look clean as could be visually
>>>>looking into them through the sender hole...
>>>>the critical part where the fuel pick up in a sump is, can't be seen.
>>>>Then can be restricted or clogged there ...not real common, but
>>>>possible.
>>>>
>>>>scott
>>>>www.turbovans.com
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob" <becida@COMCAST.NET>
>>>>To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 2:03 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: Fix or replace? - was Surface Rust on Gas Tank (with pics)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>This is another one of those things that just ought to be replaced if
>>>>>you have the money. Messing with broken brake system bleeder valves &
>>>>>old radiators are other things that are not really worth the time vs
>>>>>just replacing.
>>>>>When I worked at the front end shop we'd get a guy in who just bought
>>>>>used brake rotors from the wrecking yard then came to our shop to
>>>>>have them turned, he was spending $35 on a used rotor that cost $25
>>>>>new at the FLAPS...
>>>>>
>>>>>Check on what it would cost to replace the part with a new one and
>>>>>just do the job once.
>>>>>
>>>>>Rob
>>>>>becida@comcast.net
>>>>>
>>>>>At 3/13/2011 01:24 PM, B Feddish wrote:
>>>>>>This is one of those things where the replacement cost of a new part
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>$100-$150. Why spend hours trying to renew something as critical as a
>>>>>>gas
>>>>>>tank with rust inhibitor when replacement is probably a better
>>>>>>solution and
>>>>>>will last longer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>Bryan
