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Date:         Fri, 6 May 2011 19:28:54 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: What Do I Put In The Sugject Line?
Comments: To: Michael Sullivan <sandwichhead@GMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=original

hi all.. ok... some things about getting a good steady idle, a strong cold idle that won't stall easily, and timing.

btw ..not sure why you mentioned 'dizzy from scott foss' .. is that to help promote that I sell used parts ? .. or it that to imply that I am involved somehow , or the part I sold you is, , about your cold idle quality and stalling ? read on .

First of all, of course. since various people are having waterboxer idle isues... the two engines are different animals.. whether a 1.9 wbxr like Jeff has, or a 2.1 like Michael sullivan in this post has.

On getting a good idle. the first important thing that is very, very commonly out of whack , is the idle switch making contact at idle. with engine off, open the throttle by hand, at the engine, and listen for a click. 'if it don't click, it ain't workin' " . It's a very, very important adjustment !

hey ...I'll even say ... any shop or person trying to work on their own waterboxer van and how it starts, runs and idles who doesn't pay careful attention to the idle switch doesn't know what they are doing or they are a _________ fill in the blank. ( and I'll bet you there have been 10,000 cases of people and shops doing a 'tune up' on a waterboxer vanagon trying to fix problems when they never even have checked, or even know about, basic things like this on these engines. ( which is why I am always harping ..it's not the parts. ..it's the adjustments and workmanship. )

there are two styles of idel switch the early 1.9's with two switches just sort 'stuck on' like an afterthought or adaptation ....right where you can see them. Not hard to deal with at all.

the other system has the switch on the underside of the throttle body where you can see it. 85's usually have that style , but it's a 1.9 size throttle body. and all 86 and up 2.1' have a larger throttle plate in their throttle body with the switch hidden on the bottom.

the ones with the switch on the bottom are adjustable in place .. with a long allen wrench...or a short one held in a needle nose vice grips. It's an ecentric type adjustment and a lock screw that travels in a slot. they can be rusted solid ...or just to old to do much with .. or ..this is what I often find, it won't adjust far enough anymore. The lock screw is at the end of its travel slot and won't 'reach' where it needs to be to get the adjustment. In those cases, take the throttle body off the engine, and carefully tweak the arm that pushes on the micro switch so the cam on the throttle shaft can push the arm far enough. There is a plastic cover over this mechanism ..or often it's missing.

what you want for idle adjustment is it makes contact very close to zero throttle ..as close as you can get it and 'every time' you release the throttle it makes contact. Make sure there is a bit of slack in the throttle cable...so it gets to zero throttle at the throttle plate for sure. Say we are shooting for idle switch makes contact at 'just barely open' like say 2 % open throttle .. is when the switch closes. if it's adusted so it closes early ...like say at 7 % open throttle .. it'll still idle well, but if you try to go slowly and smoothly at very low rpm , you'll get bucking.

when they are really, really running exactly right , they will pull perfectly smoothly at very low rpm ...like at say ...1,400 rpm ..not that you would go around a corner and ease out of it at such low rpm . but they will pull perfectly smooth at very light throttle and very low rpm when they are really aligned right in all the parapmeters that affect how it runs. There are quite a few parameters too, Many actually, counting all inputs like say AFM ...temp sensor ...how good the compression is etc.

so get that right first in all cases. Idle switch making contact *every time* the throttle is released and as quite close to zero throttle opening.

Timing .. they can not be too advanced. Resist the temptation to advance timing at idle since that makes it smoother and faster. You want it pretty close to zero degrees. On 1.9's I think they are officially suppossed to be 5 degrees After top dead center ..pretty retarded. I set those to about zero . or maybe 2 degrees BTDC ...but no more advanced that that. 1.9 and 2.1 crank pulleys are different btw ...make sure you have the right one for your type of distributor. you can tell by the two notches . It's not likely that anyone has the wrong crank pulley .. but say someone drops in a 2.1 in a vanagon that has 1.9 fuel injection and distributor .. they should swap the 1.9 crank pulley onto that 2.1 engine.

FAST COLD IDLE.. Sometimes they don't very . on the 1.9 there is the Auxiliary Air Regulator . It's suppossed to route extra air around the throttle plate when cold, to increase idle speed. In my expereince they only 'sort of' work...or they have minimal affect. Like I might get a slightly faster idle cold , but not like if it idles at 900 warm, it's doing 1,500 cold.. they don't seem to do that to me. But I do manage to get them so they are all right cold, don't stall easily cold, and idle nicely warm, and have fine power and good fuel economy. .

2.1 fast idle cold. The Air Valve on top of the engine affects that. Those valves get sticky sometimes. I'm sure they flat don't do anything on some vans. The control unit for it is hidden behind the right tail light. Those are not cheap at all. On the 87 Wolfsburg I'm driving now ..it always used to stall super easily cold. I have about 4 each of those valves and control units.. by swapping various ones around ..........it's decent now. I get a slightly faster idle cold, and no stalling at all. If you just unplug the Electronic Idle control valve that's on top of the engine ... then start the engine cold, and it's its same old sleepy slow self, you can conclude that perhaps that valve and control unit are not working. there is one wire from that control unit to the ecu I believe , I have read of that wire being open .. my point here is ... there are many 2.1's where that electronically controlled idle system for when it's cold probably isn't working. If your auto trans 2.1 waterboxer van does not act cold just like it does warm .. then something is not right. when they are right ..they run strongly when cold, and don't stall. Parts get old though ..things get sticky ... ...air passages get gummed up from blow by ..those control units can fail. If it acts very weak cold , and doesn't idle faster at least a little cold ... it's possible your air idle control system is not working like it once did.

TEMP SENSOR II .. sometimes I'll try 5 different used ones on a waterboxer engine of my own. If you ohm check them ...they'll differ a little in their resistance. Higher resistance equals richer mixture ... plus there are cheap after market ones and OE grade better ones.......my point here is Temp Sensor II can make a lot of difference in how it idles and runs.

Back to adjusting the idle.. first get that dang idle switch right. then make sure the timing is not too advanced. And it goes without saying, the ignition parts have to be good, plug wires, plugs, etc., no intake leaks anywhere ....injectors with decent spray patterns and so on.

I don't usually turn the mixture screw on the AFM. If I can't get an idle I like with having the timing right, the idle switch making contact and by turning the large air-bypass screw on the throttle body ..I might tweak on the mixture screw some. Use your judgement there. I'm not saying turn it this way or that until it sounds better...it should be set and left ...read what Bentley says about it ..it's where you adjust CO at idle. And it does affect idle quality some.

long enough. in all cases... pretty much, you have to, or it 'sure helps' let's say if you understand how all the various parts work .. then you come up with ways to test or find out if they are doing what they are supposed to do. ( sometimes that's as low tech as trying another whatever ..temp sensor II ..very low tech ..but subsitutiing known good parts is a valid test method ...which is why you should have a whole set of spare parts for a waterboxer engine, like ecu, distrubutor, air flow meter .........as many as you can get. And by trying different ones you learn that either you have a good spare for a back up , or that something isn't right about one of them. ) And do all the tests that benley mentions. and you have to have some special tools.. I'm really big on remote starter swtiches, very useful. Ulitmately you need a fuel pressure gague. Timing light is pretty basic and doesn't have to be expensive. IR temp guy .. heck guys and girls.. anyone who is working on idle qaulity and stalling cold and such should at least shoot the temps of each exhaust header pipe ... and do them all the same distance from the head btw ...about six inches.. what does it tell you if three are running at 350 F and one is running at 240 F ..?? obviously something is weak there. I mention it as an example of tests that can be done to figure stuff out.

last comments.. when we see a tail light that's out .. what we automatically do without thinking about it is come up with a theory that matches the symptom. What could cause a light to be out ? naturally we think 'bulb' ...and then 'fuse' etc. Point is .. you observe a symtom .. any simptom, stalls, pings, leaks, rattles ...any *symptom* . then you start thinking of things that could cause that symtom. That's step 2. step 3 is .. you test for that theory. you measure something, you try another one ..etc. and that's all you do , over and over .. come up with a hypothetical reason for the symtom, then test for it.

of course if we don't know how it works, we won't be coming up with many possible reasons.. and if we don't have ways to TEST for are possible reasons..then we can't get to far , other than 'try parts' in the hope of fixing it. how the fuel injection, engine, and igntion and all that works is very clear to me .. it's simple really .. it's just a matter of how long the ecu holds the injectors open, and the igntion happening at the right time ..And the various sensors talk to the ecu to tell it what to do. The 'air part' ....intake leaks, throttle body and switch .. all that is very very important to how it runs. Since 'air flow' is one of the main things the ecu measures .. and in the case of cold idle spead, controls.

anyway ..long enough . but *it all has to be right*. and ........I never even bother to unplug the idle speed stabizer on a 1.9 . I suppose I've found a bad one here or there ....but I seem to get 'em just right by just making sure the timing is not too advanced at idle, and as far as dissabling that device goes - I just leave 'em connected. If one is unplugged , I connect it back up. It likes that part in the circuit. Oh ...19's ...their distrubtor wear much more than 2.1's do .. and ...they must have passed a law ..that no one anywhere is allowed to put oil on the felt pad under the rotor in a 1.9 dizzy. I have yet to see one that wasn't bone dry. That felt pad is there to provide a little oil to the centrifugal advance mechainism. I have also seen vacuuum noses on 1.9's connected incorrectly. It all has to be right. All of it, for them to work like they should . Waterboxers do not neccessarily hold a 'set up' really well. Mine seem to .......and it might take me a LOT of adjsuting and fine tuning to get them there ....and then they stay that way ...but I see so many that are not really in tune or adjusted or running right actually. To their great credit, they will keep running with many things out of whack actually.

it will take too long to correct all the spelling ! scott www.turbovans.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sullivan" <sandwichhead@GMAIL.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 4:51 PM Subject: Re: What Do I Put In The Sugject Line?

> You may think I am off base here, but I replaced my dizzy on my 91 last > year > with a used one from Scott because the Hall Sensor was toasted on the old > one. EVER since I repleaced it and timed it by ear....my van ALWAYS stalls > first thing every morning when I switch from reverse to Drive. If I rev > it > a couple of times B4 I out it in Drive, then no stall. I gotta think my > timing needs to be adjusted. I idle right at 8-9k, but it started > happening > right after the install of the replacement dizzy. I thought you might > want > to check into the timing and slightly adjust it. Just my .02. > BTW-Had to jump off the roof a couple of days ago since I did not have a > helper to hold my lader and screwed up my knee so waiting for pain killer > to > kick in. At least it is Frydaye, so if my suggestion is off > base,,,,,,blame > it on the Vicodin. Godd luck. > Michael in San Antonio > 91GL Weekender AT 2.1L 'Gringo' > > > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:43 PM, J Stewart <fonman4277@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Wasn't sure what to call this, "Two Days Of Pure Hell" or "Two steps >> Forward, One Step Back" or "Mechanics-You Deserve Your Money". Here's the >> situation: my 1985 Weekender, starts and runs OK, but on cold start up >> usually stalls a couple of times when put in gear (automatic). Engine >> "sounds" like it idles smoothly, but engine also shakes quite a bit too >> at >> idle.


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