Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 06:53:21 -0700
Reply-To: Rocket J Squirrel <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Rocket J Squirrel <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermostats [Was: Spooked!]
In-Reply-To: <4de9c453.e764e60a.600d.2166@mx.google.com>
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Thanks for the deeper explanation of how the system works.
I understood that the thermostat isn't a binary on-off thingy, but a
device that gradually opens once we hit the bottom end of its range.
Scott said he didn't like the low-temp ones in winter, and what I was
questioning was whether that made any especial difference, since
regardless of whether it's cold or hot outside, the engine will get
hotter and hotter until it reaches the bottom end of the t-stat's range
and the t-stat will then work to keep the engine within its control
range.
IOW, season does not make a difference?
PS. Thing I've learned is to not disregard Scott's words, but I do like
to look at them more deeply.
PPS. I think the arguments here in favor of the stock t-stat are good
ones, and if changing the t-stat was super easy I'd do it in a
heartbeat. But I somehow sense that we're talking a lot of coolant loss
in the process, and a messy driveway, and buckets of coolant to somehow
dispose of. Not to mention the whole gosh-darn cooling system filling
and bleeding rigamarole.
On Sat, 2011-06-04 at 01:36 -0400, David Beierl wrote:
> At 12:47 AM 6/4/2011, Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
> >Winter or summer, the thermostat will pretty much bring the engine up to
> >80C (or 87C, depending its setpoint), yes?
> >
> >Seems to me that regardless of whether there is snow on the ground or
> >molten asphalt, the engine will just get hotter and hotter until the
> >thermostat cracks open, and it's the thermostat's job to modulate the
> >amount of water going to the rad to keep the coolant -- at the point
> >where the thermostat senses it -- at the setpoint temperature.
>
> It isn't a setpoint so much as a balance - the 'stat opens over a
> range of about 35F, so while you're in the control range of the
> system the temperature at the thermostat will be between ~185F and
> 220F. The fan will be running at high speed ~ten degrees before the
> thermostat is fully open.
>
> Once you hit 220F you're now dependent on the ability of the
> radiator/fan to reject heat so you've got a new balance between 220F
> and the system boiling point, which should be close to 260F if you're
> running 50/50 ethylene-glycol coolant and your pressure cap is in
> good shape (265F at 15 psi, I think our caps are 13 psi). It's still
> a balance because heat transfer goes up with the square of
> temperature difference.*
>
> Somewhere at the top of that range you'll notice a little red light
> blinking on your temp gauge, and VW specifically says (owners manual,
> page 37 in the '89 book) that elevated gauge temps are "not serious"
> until the light starts blinking. According to "some antifreeze mfr"
> 260F is a common setpoint for engine overheat alarms.
>
> *this margin between 220F and boiling point decreases at altitude,
> since it's absolute pressure and not gauge pressure that really matters...
>
> "Open-deck" engines like the Subaru (according to the Subaruvanagon
> list folks) are not so tolerant of temperature excursions, so the
> Subaru cooling system is regulated a good deal more tightly than the
> WBX in normal operation. It still has the same margins at the
> extremes, but the thermostat system works more crisply.
>
> Yrs,
> d
>
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