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Date:         Fri, 8 Jul 2011 00:19:00 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Superchargers? - Low Pressure Turbo!
Comments: To: frankgrun@AOL.COM
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=original

Awesome Frank ! what ever happened to that engine ?

'she who much be obeyed' ....cute .

Personally I'm jazzed about my 'new' 2.0 16V engine, still pulling it at the yard. Scott www.turbovans.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Grunthaner" <frankgrun@AOL.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 11:44 PM Subject: Re: Superchargers? - Low Pressure Turbo!

I've just seen this query raised by Don Hanson over the viability of supercharging the I4 engine. I've seen the enlightened comment about the much simpler use of a turbo for a significant power boost, which was followed by the difficulties of doing this modification on the stock engine. I'm again moved to comment and offer a few centimes of advice to brave few who are tempted to implement the turbo solution.

Several years ago, I shared with this list my studies of power (actually torque) enhancement methods based on the 1.8l I4 gasoline engine system. I examined several possibilities including the g60 and studied the published MTZ papers from VW Engineering about their choice of the G60 and their modifications to the basic 1.8L I4 engine to ensure its reliability. I also looked into several aftermarket systems as well as the McCulloch variable speed drive supercharger used by Studebaker/Packard on the Golden Hawk and the Avanti. Of all the supercharger systems, I concluded that the McCulloch was the best for application for the small I4 engine. Its variable speed pulley system drives the supercharger at a high rpm ratio at low engine speeds and at lower drive speeds at higher engine rpm giving an enhanced torque curve that is nearly flat across all operating engine rpm. Of course this is exactly the design objective of the VW's superb turbocharged 1.8L engine.I also determined that the Turbo 1.8L was too large to comfortably fit my needs, didn't readily adapt to the 50 degree DV mount - AND the cost would be impossible to hide from She Who Must Be Obeyed!

I reviewed what I wanted from more coins expended on power enhancement and concluded that a modest power boost on demand was desirable. In general, the 1.8L I4 performed very well in town and on the open highway. I really wanted more moxie for passing and I wanted to recover the power lost driving in the mountains due to the lower atmospheric density at higher elevations. A well engineered turbo charger was perfectly suited to my application. I was quite aware of the additional stress added to the rotating system as well as the cooling and lubrication systems by high power turbo systems. My primary driver has always been reliability with a touch of excellent efficiency thrown in. Under these terms, the return of power at high elevations was virtually stress free because it really brought the system back to its sea level performance dynamic.

OK, all of this is in the archives and on Alistair Bell's web page so I won't recount the details. To summarize, I went to the 2.0L Audi 80 block and head because of its strong internals and the excellent flow characteristics of the head and intake manifold. I used the Garrett T3 and adapted it to the Calif. version of the Audi 80 exhaust manifold. The T3 fit nicely after I rotated it so the spin axis of the turbo was perpendicular to the axis of the crankshaft. In the 50 degree configuration this placed the turbo perfectly horizontal. I modified the intake manifold to adapt the digifant fuel injectors and used the digifant engine control system. I also took the SAAP automatic pressure control (APC) ignition system and used it for ignition and timing control since it controls boost pressure based on the signal from the knock sensor. I added additional oil cooling from the Audi 5000T and injector cooling from same. I added the SAAB 9000 Blackstone intercooler for charge cooling mounted in the driver's side rear well. I also added a oil scavenger pump to clear the turbo oil return and redirect the collected oil to the oil pan. The scavenger pump was mounted in the normal position of the power steering pump on the I4 engine. At this tine I also developed the oil pan baffle system to control the oil flying everywhere. Finally, I added a water injection system along with an EGT monitor to maintain a margin of control. The water system was plumbed to the camper water supply.

I designed the system for a maximum of 2-3 psi boost but in practice the intake manifold pressure sometimes approached 4.6 psi. The engine package was extremely strong and never showed any tendency to overheat. I did enjoy the way the front of the vanagon would lift as I punched the throttle. It served me well until I got the TDi bug.

For what its worth,

Frank Grunthaner

-----Original Message----- From: pat <psdooley@VERIZON.NET> To: vanagon <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Wed, Jul 6, 2011 5:12 pm Subject: Re: Superchargers?

The VW G60 charger is a known weak link in the Corrado. A lot of Corrado G60 owners upgrade to turbo.

4 grand is a lot for forced induction when you can get a Garrett T3 for $100 and rebuild it for another hundred. Sure, you need an exhaust manifold and exhaust plumbing- throw in another $200. Either way you need an intercooler, intake piping and management.

A supercharger (like a Lysholm, not a G60), is good for around town and probably the best choice for a Vanagon. For your Jetta, the turbo is the best kick in the pants.

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Don Hanson Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 11:14 AM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Superchargers?

Anyone have any experience with superchargers on a VW? Turbochargers get all the ink..everyone talks about Turbo Subies and Bostig transplants.

In many factory vehicles, superchargers are original equipment. VW offers some factory supercharged models. Toyota started doing it way back in the '90s...

I have seen kits offered for inline VW motors...For example: Bahn Brenner (a VW Tuner) offers some stand-alone kits and also upgrades for the G-60 factory supercharged VW. Their kits are said to up the 1.8 liter supercharged motors output from 180hp to near 200

For $4k you can get your N.A. Jetta motor making ~180hp and ~200lb/ft of torque... with a supercharger kit said to bolt on in an afternoon.

I am just curious here if anyone has gone that route to more power for a Vanagon. It's my understanding that superchargers work without any "lag" and they don't involve complex exhaust routing.

Don Hanson ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3746 - Release Date: 07/05/11


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