Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:16:57 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: 84 Westy Fuel Pump Problem
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
hmmmm..
some information that may help uncloud things ...
when you turn the key to on, ( not start ) ..the fuel pump should run for a
few seconds and shut off.
That is the normal indication, if it doesn't do that .someting is not
working right.
The ecu turns on the fuel pump by supplying ground to the fuel pump relay
..the one on the right it the relay box agove the coil.
The ecu also does that same thing ..
supplies ground when it senses igniton happening.
and ..a way I like to test distributors, is just take one in my hand, plug
it into the 3 wire connector on the harness and turn that dist with my
fingers.
each qtr turn should produce a spark out of the coil..
and make the fuel pump run.
if you turn one cylinder's worth ..you get a zap out of the coil wire, and
fuel pump runs a few seconds.
i like doing it that way, turning the , or 'a' distritubor by hand, becuase
when the starter it turning th engine ..you can't hear the fuel pump run
very well.
I have never had to go to the ecu plug for any reason ....though there could
be some problem there.
I never even check voltage at relay pin numbers..
I just use basic 'substitute and bypass' ..
for example..
on the fuel pump relay socket....if you jumpe the top wire ( after removing
realy ) .that red wire, which is hot either all the time, or with key on, I
forget which ....
jumper that to the very bottom pin socket..
the fuel pump should run.
right there....that tells you the wires and they pump, and it's ground, are
all good.
when you turn on the key ( fuel pump relay plugged in ) the pump will run a
few seconds.
if it does that..
those 3 tests..
key on , pump runs a few seconds,
jumper the two wires at the fp relay ,
and espeicially ...if fuel pump runs with distributor turning ( igntion on
of course ) ...
if those all work ..
electrcially the fuel pump is working.
no further electrical troubleshooting is needed normally .
I use a lot of 'substitue and bypass.'
as a diagnostic strategy ..
for example , it won't run, you jumper or hot wire the fuel pump to make the
pump run..
and then engine runs..
then you know to work on the fuel pump control circuit.
I have only heard of one 1.9 wbxr ecu ever, that would not supply grnd to
run the fuel pump.
and I had a bad 2.1 ecu recently for cutting out and intermittant igntion.
fwiw.
scott
www.turbovans.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "nirav patel" <agencia72@GMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 9:49 PM
Subject: Fwd: 84 Westy Fuel Pump Problem
> Hello everyone,
>
> Nirav Patel from Austin, TX - USA here. I had to get a new email address
> for the vanagon email list, but wanted to follow up with the group on my
> earlier email (see below) regarding my fuel pump problems on my '84 westy.
>
> Yesterday I was able to get my fuel pump to do the 1 sec prime when you
> turn
> the key to the 'on' position. However, it was strange scenario.
>
> 1) With my digital multimeter between a ground and pin 20 at the relay,
> I'm
> getting a constant 12 volts on the multimeter and the fuel pump runs for 1
> second. To hear that sound was a happy moment. I reminded me of my '87.
>
> 2) With a solid wire between a ground and pin 20 at the relay, I'm getting
> a
> continuous run of the fuel pump.
>
> Here is a picture of the relay and pin/line 20, which I was touching with
> the multimeter:
> http://www.agencia72.com/fuel_relays.jpg
>
> Here is a picture of the connector that goes to my ECU. Am I right that
> the
> pin marked in this image is number 20?
> http://www.agencia72.com/ecu_connector.jpg
>
> Can anyone explain some theories as to why I'm getting that 1 sec prime in
> #1 and confirm that I'm reading the right number in the ECU connector?
>
> Thank you so much. It felt good to make some sort of progress, albiet
> unexplained to me.
>
> Safe travels,
> +nirav
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Nirav V. Patel [USA] <goodbhai@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:55 PM
> Subject: Fwd: 84 Westy Fuel Pump Problem
> To: Nirav Patel <agencia72@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> Forwarded conversation
> Subject: 84 Westy Fuel Pump Problem
> ------------------------
>
> From: *Nirav V. Patel [USA]* <goodbhai@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 8:02 PM
> To: vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com
>
>
> I'm a newbie with VW repair and maintenance, but getting better.
> Would love any and all thoughts on a problem I have with my fuel pump.
>
> I can't seem to get my fuel pump to do the one sec prime when the key
> is in the run position. Fuel pump runs when jumped with 12v. I
> tested my wires (Relay to Fuel Pump) with a multimeter, and the output
> from the relay box to the fuel pump is reading .10 on the multimeter
> for the 1sec duration when the key is on the run position. When the
> engine starts I'm getting 12v. I've swapped out my relays and tested
> another ECU. The wiring seems intact.
>
> Today I removed the steering column cover to check the key lock
> mechanism (ignition switch?). I was told that this mechanism is
> signaling to the ECU. When I pulled out the connector behind the key
> lock, this is what I saw: http://goo.gl/bgLcy
>
> Is it possible to jump these wires in order to test to see if the key
> lock mechanism is broken? If it is broken, perhaps it's not signaling
> correctly to the ECU. But then again, maybe I'm completely off base
> here. Please help. I'm at a loss.
>
> Greetings from Austin, Texas.
>
> +nirav
>
> ----------
> From: *Robert Keezer* <warmerwagen@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 11:51 PM
> To: vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com, "Nirav V. Patel [USA]" <goodbhai@gmail.com>
>
>
> Hi Nirav,
>
> The ECU controls the fuel pump negative ground side.The ignition switch
> sends 12 volts to the ECU when switched on.
> You can bypass the switch with jumpers. If the ecu is bad, the pump will
> not
> activate. You can first jump the pump relay postion, if the pump stays on
> full-time, then jump the ignition switch.If the pump goes on, the switch
> is
> bad. if nothing happens, then it's more likely that the ECU is bad.
> Robert
> 1982 Westfalia
>
> --- On *Sat, 6/11/11, Nirav V. Patel [USA] <goodbhai@GMAIL.COM>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Nirav V. Patel [USA] <goodbhai@GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: 84 Westy Fuel Pump Problem
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Date: Saturday, June 11, 2011, 6:02 PM
>
>
> ----------
> From: *Dennis Haynes* <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
> Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 12:07 AM
> To: "Nirav V. Patel [USA]" <goodbhai@gmail.com>, vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com
>
>
> The fuel pump running for a short time after the ignition is turned is not
> a
> design feature. It is a glitch. In order for the pump to run the ECU needs
> to see the pulses from the distributor turning. Depending on distributor
> position turning the key on will often give a pulse (accompanied by a
> spark), and this will cause the pump to run briefly. If the pump runs
> while
> the engine is turning then all is good. No reason to go further.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> Nirav V. Patel [USA]
> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 9:03 PM
>
> ----------
> From: *neil n* <musomuso@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 11:08 AM
> To: "Nirav V. Patel [USA]" <goodbhai@gmail.com>
> Cc: vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com
>
>
> A new or good used ignition switch can be temporarily installed for
> testing or emergency (failed switch) purposes.
>
> This is a useful spare part to carry and doesn't cost much money.
>
> Sounds like your Vanagon runs ok so personally I wouldn't worry about
> the priming. That said, now I'm curious.
>
> Assuming all parts concerned are ok and engine not started each time:
>
> if one turns the ign. switch to Ign. on position several times, will
> pump eventually not prime?
>
> (fuel pressure is raised to spec ign. switch turned to Ign. on
> position 1st time, residual pressure remains at spec)
>
> I don't know how this would be possible though. AFAIK, there's no
> electrical connection between the fuel pressure regulator and the ECU,
> but just had to ask. < grin > .
>
> Neil.
> --
> Neil Nicholson '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco"
>
> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
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