Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 16:20:59 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Clutch/Shifting issue?
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the hose that feeds the clutch MC is on the right side of the brake fluid
reservoir ..
about 3/4th of the way up..
so even if all clutch brake fluid leaks out ..say out of the slave..
the brakes still have plenty of fluid to work with.
And ..the brakes being bad...
can not affect the clutch ..unless the BF level in the res gets below the
line to the clutch MC .
.and even then ..
the full hose full of BF going to the clutch MC acts as a res for the clutch
MC anyway.
the clutch has not been looked at or worked on, or replaced in 105K miles.
That's a fair amount all right.
how is the pedal effort ?
the effort should be pretty linear through the full travel.
if it's softer at the top ...then harder below ..
that could mean something.
an brand new clutch with properly working hydraulics feels smooth and
light almost .
and very even in effort through the whole stoke of the pedal.
deviations from that show up as parts where.
Often ....very high pedal effort means tired clutch disc and pressure plate.
but you have to be able to tell what part of the feel is from the clutch
hydraulics and what part is from the clutch.
see my previous post about a van that had both going on at once..
soft from the hydraulics, hard from the clutch itself.
of it was in my van ..or in my shop ..
I'd rule out clutch hydraulics..
observe how well the slave piston and rod move downward ( watch for slave
bracket flexing..
people leave off the front support bracket sometimes .....which can lead to
bracket cracking even ) ..
so look for 'lost motion' or weakness everywhere from the clutch pedal,
through the hydraulics, to the lever on the side of the trans and the slave
bracket..
if it's not that ..
pull the trans ( if 2WD ) and look at the clutch.,
I can just see tons of clutch material dust there right now.
sounds more like clutch itself to me ..
though eliminate external causes first ...just watch how well the lever
moves while someone pushes in the clutch pedal.
it it's not external to the clutch bell housing ..
then it's internal, remove trans.
that a dealer did the work is no assurance that it was done properly and
thoroughly.
Likely , more expensively, yes, but 'really right' ......they're just as
sloppy sometimes as anyone else.
9 yrs/105K miles is a long time on a waterboxer clutch ( though they are
very good clutches generally ) and some people , and some driving
conditions, are rougher on clutches than others.
Scott
www.turbovans.com
Aloha
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Buese" <tombuese@COMCAST.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Clutch/Shifting issue?
Ok, just checked my records-had new clutch MC & Slave cylinder installed
9/2008. Had tranny gear oil & brake fluid replaced in 9/2010, (coolant
flushed/changed at same time).
It was the leaking brake MC that I had changed 6-8 years ago.
I have not had the engine pulled in this vanagon in the 9 years/105k I have
owned it. Runs like a sewing machine. So clutch might be going bad or poorly
installed, but that would have been by the VW dealer, as no one else worked
on it before I bought it.
Sooo, can a bad brake MC affect the fluid going thru the Clutch MC & make it
not shift? Is the brake MC above the Clutch MC & directly below the
resovoir?
YMMV,
Mr. BZ- have new FTE German Brake MC in my van stash.
On Jul 25, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
> Kakua 4 U.
>
> if it's the orignial clutch master cylinder , it was due to be replaced 5
> or more years ago.
> Defenitly weak if original.
>
> a clutch mas cyl can pump in air without leaking fluid exterenally
> ...easily. All hyd master cylinders can do that.
>
> a manual pedal-stroking bleeding method will show if it's pumping in air.
>
> not likely shift linkage.
> if not external to the clutch itself ..
> like a hydrulic problem .
> then it would be internal ..
> such as ...worn out/detroyed pilot bearing .
> not that uncommon since the little metal ring in the flywheel that holds
> the felt clutch dust seal is often missing ..
> leading to pilot bearing failure easily.
> that failure can show up as intermittant failing to get a clean release of
> the clutch.
>
> how does the pedal feel.
> mushy ?
> I have seen a vangon with this going on ..
> the clutch pedal was mushy, as in shot hydraulics.
> yet at the same time..
> the effort to push down the pedal was higher than normal..
> which goes with very high miles on the pressure plate and disc..
> so that one was both
> soft and hard at the same time. No kidding.
> and likely very not easily detected by many people.
>
> that van needed the hydraulics straigtened out and a better or new disc
> and pressure plate.
>
> fwiw .
> it's very common to see bad workmanship in vanagon cluches..
> the pilot bearing dust seal thing..
> missing locating dowels on the flywheel for the pressure plate..
> completely poorly lube release meachism parts ..etc. etc. etc.
>
> and ..that clevis and pin pivot point way up on the clutch pedal ..
> there's no provision for lubing that .
> it's bare metal-to-metal ..and that spot wears.
> You can blindly spray up in there with a good spray lube to help some.
> if the freeplay a the top of the clutch pedal is more than a half inch (
> 1/8th inch is ideal ) ...
> it's probalby wearing there some.
> and it's not easy to deal with at all.
> so always ...try to get some spray lube up there somehow.
>
> and actually ..
> vanagons suffer from lack of lubrication thoughout so badly...I can not
> say it enough.
> IF everything that moves was kept nicely lubed..
> they would never wear out.
> there are dozens and dozens, hundreds even ..of spots on vanagons that
> have never been lubed, that move against each other...never lubed since
> the factory. A real, and very unnessary, shame.
>
> someday I'll make that list of spots..
> it's well over a hundred, easily.
>
> clutch hyd fluid needs to be changed every two years..
> and is mandatory , as far as I'm concerned, any time there's a new clutch,
> trans is replaced , etc.
>
>
> scott
> www.turbovans.com
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Buese" <tombuese@COMCAST.NET>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 1:24 PM
> Subject: Clutch/Shifting issue?
>
>
> Hi Volks,
>
> 84 vanagon w/ 4 speed tranny-has always shifted well (144k) except when
> clutch cylinders leaked & got low on brake fluid- have replaced master
> brake & clutch slave cylinders in the last year/ 4+- years. No problems
> recently until the other day, couldn't downshift into 1st w/o turning off
> engine & starting w/ clutch fully depressed. Thot it was low brake fluid
> so fudged my way home & topped off resevoir which was only down 1/2" +-.
> Depressed clutch & brake several times & it seemed to work until today
> when I had to do the ole turn off/start engine again trick when ever I
> needed to get it in gear. Higher gears sometimes had same issue, but not
> always. WTF?
>
> It seems like a clutch issue? Could that happen suddenly? Or is it a
> shifting linkage issue? Hmmm, come to think of it, I believe that the
> clutch master cylinder has not ever been replaced. Can that puppy go w/o
> any signs of leaking, warning signs???
>
> Your kokua(help) would be appreciated.
>
> Mr. BZ-5 miles to home before I sleep=
