Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 18:58:56 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Diesel starter differences,
Was Re: Starter motor do-it-yourself rebuild
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The old direct drive starters are usually turned in for a core.
to not turn it in, means paying usually 60 bucks core charge, at least with
the Bosch rebuilds I get.
I have not had a problem yet with the smaller recuction gear drive diesel
vanagon starters, fwiw.
here's one for you though ..
a super well preserved 82 Sunroof Diesel vanagon I have for sale...
direct drive original type starter..
and it would 'disengage early' ...like 'zing-out' sometimes . I knew that
was the drive gear acting up.
I took the starter to an electrical rebuilding shop ..
they took the Bosch number off the starter,
got me the right gear in a few days for $ 25 or so.
with that gear on ..
cranking and starting that van ..
one would go 'wow ..that is one smooth sounding starter'...
it is very noticebly less 'gear clashy' sounding while cranking than any
diesel vanagon.
Sounds like a brand new factory starter, flywheel, and engine . First one
I ever heard sound that nicely.
I don't find that it's so hard to find a good electrical rebuider shop.
two come to mind in my area ..the one where I got the drive gear ...appears
smaller and less organized and I have not tried them.
The other one ..
everything I've had them do, from subaru alternator to vanagon alternators
..
results have been 100 % each time. fwiw.
scott
www.turbovans.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Poppie Jagersand" <poppie.jagersand@YAHOO.CA>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:46 PM
Subject: Diesel starter differences, Was Re: Starter motor do-it-yourself
rebuild
A note for all users of the Diesel starters:(not just rebuilders)
The smaller newer gear reduction starter is likely more electrically
efficient. It is also likely much cheaper to build.
However an advantage of the old, heavy direct drive starter is that it is
much more abuse tolerant:
*The heavy weight makes it take much more cranking abuse before overheating.
*The construction is more durable. No flimsily attached and very fragile
ferrite magnets.
*Fewer parts so less than can break.
So don't toss your old heavy original starter. Keep it around for when you
get tired of replacing those new aftermarket (or Bosch) starters, and either
rebuild it yourself, offer it to a listmember or find one of those (now
rare) shops that will actually rebuild your starter, not just give you a
replacement.
Martin (and '82 Westy 1.9TD "Poppie")
----- Original Message -----
From: Poppie Jagersand <poppie.jagersand@YAHOO.CA>
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Cc:
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 10:38:02 AM
Subject: Re: Starter motor do-it-yourself rebuild
Here are some more starter observations. I pulled apart and compared the two
different types currently available for our Diesel vanagon. As Neil, Bryan
and others have noticed, when you get a rebuild you may end up getting the
smaller swapped for the larger and vice versa.
member NYSwanderer put some photos on the web, and wondered what the
differences between them are.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Diesel-Vanagon/photos/album/1381430081/pic/449269473/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
I took them apart and here is my side by side comparison:
The smaller is a gear reduction starter using a planetary gear and has a
permanent magnet motor. The larger one is a direct drive motor with windings
in both stator and rotor connected in series. Both AFAIK meet spec.
I have a torque/power graph for the smaller one from a rebuilder.
If someone got a graph for the bigger it would be interesting to compare.
Please scan and email me and I'll post both.
In theory the larger starter could have both a higher peak torque and a
higher max rpm. That comes from the fact that both rotor and stator windings
are connected in series. When stalled or at very low rpm, the high current
will increase the magnetic field in both the stator and rotor. By contrast,
the permanent magnet motor has a fixed magnetic field from the ferrite
magnets (that may even go down if the starter gets hot).
For the series motor as the rpm increases the magnetic field weakens. This
field weakening yields a lower back EMF in the windings, and thus allows for
a higher RPM.
These are differences you learn in a motor text book. The gear reduction and
design of the smaller starter may very well make up for them. That's why it
would be interesting to compare test graphs.
Mechanical differences:
I don't think many internal parts interchange. I tried to use the studs from
one on the other, but threads were different. Brushes and brush holders are
different.
At best there seems to be some chance that solenoids and end bushings may be
the same, but I need to check. Or someone with Bosch data tables can find
out.
The smaller one have very brittle ferrite magnets. Don;t drop your tools or
they can/will shatter. The bigger one has robust copper windings in the
stator.
Another note on the smaller starter: nyswanderer remarked that he saw no
Bosch markings on his, so it must be an aftermarket. I however got a smaller
starter that a friend had brought from Germany. That is an original Bosch
with markings. I got another one with no markings.
Martin (and '82 Westy 1.9TD "Poppie")
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Jagersand <jag@CS.UALBERTA.CA>
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:12:00 PM
Subject: Starter motor do-it-yourself rebuild
I just rebuilt the starter for my '82 Diesel Westy. Last time I did it was
in '99, I think, so the previous rebuild lasted about 8 years.
Bosch rebuilt starters can run near $200 nowdays, but rebuilding it yourself
is not hard. Here are some tips:
(Edit 2011: I was quoted from 200 to $400 for a Bosch rebuilt, $100 to 300
for others)
First check that the problem is really the starter. Measure the voltage over
the starter itself while cranking, ie from the positive iput terminal on the
starter to the starter housing. If it's 8-10V and the starter still is
cranking slowly the starter is most likely bad. If battery voltage is ok but
voltage at starter is low check voltage drop in the positive and negative
circuit. When I measured I had .2V drop in the neg circuit and .9V in the
positive. Of the .9V .7V was over the solenoid and .2V in ther actual cable.
If it is not starting at all, no noise, no click, despite having 12V at both
starter and solenoid, check connections to the solenoid, and then between
solenoid and starter. This time I found that the metal tab running from the
outside of the soloid terminal and connecting the solenoid winding was
sheared off. I soldered on a flat piece of copper (from a water pipe ground
strap) to fix it.
So you determined that its the starter. All Bosch starters, gas or diesel
have the same basic design, but the sizes and housings are different between
different models. Get the right parts!
Wear parts are basically:
1/ Bushings: 3 total. One in each end, and one in the middle. The latter I
don't think carries much load. Cost: about $1 each from the Bosch
distributor.
2/ Brushes: 4 in total. You can buy either a brush assembly for $45 with the
4 brushes already mounted, or 4 loose brushes for about $15 total. If you
get loose brushes get ones with small u-shaped metal ends welded to the
copper braid. They are much easier to solder to your brushholder.
The above is Bosch prices VW dealer prices are about twice as much.
Rebuild procedure:
1. Unscrew the two small screws on the commutator housing (back) this
releases the brush holder.
2. Unbolt the two studs in the back. Now the commutator end comes off after
removing a circlip on the end of the shaft, and the rotor is loose, but
don't pull it off yet.
3. Loosen the 3 screws holding the solenoid to the front housing.
4. Between the solenoid and the starter motor is a small rubber piece. See
if you can loosen it. Carefully wiggle and separate the front housing.
5. Solenoid and starter can be separated at the solenoid end. Take off the
solenoid. (To prevent binding wipe off any dirt or corrosion on the solenoid
plunger before reassembly)
6. Determine shape of bushings. The gear end bushing is in the bellhousing
on starters for transverse engine models, and in the front housing on
longitudinal engines. Replace front and rear bushings if worn.
7. To get at the middle bushing remove the ring and c-clip in front of the
gear. Slide off gear assembly. Take out plate holding middle bushing.
Replace if worn.
8. Check brushes. New brushes have about 8mm between the tip and the copper
braid. I'd replace them if they are more than half worn. Also if the
bushings were really bad the starter shaft has been riding out of center,
and the brushes have been wearing irregularly and need replacement.
9. Snip off the braided copper holding the old brushes. Don't lose the
springs! File off any remains from the brush holder. Solder on new brushes.
Make sure they are soldered well. Each brush will pass 100's of amps at
startup!
10. Inspect the commutator. If pitted (from arcing) sand/file down until
clean and smooth
copper. If out of round use a lathe.
11. Assemble the parts. Grease bushings and gears lightly. You don't want
grease on the commutator or too much so that it can spatter on the clutch.
--
Martin Jagersand
University of Alberta
http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jag/