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Date:         Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:46:42 -0700
Reply-To:     Poppie Jagersand <poppie.jagersand@YAHOO.CA>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Poppie Jagersand <poppie.jagersand@YAHOO.CA>
Subject:      Diesel starter differences,
              Was Re: Starter motor do-it-yourself rebuild
In-Reply-To:  <1313167570.98579.YahooMailNeo@web45308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

A note for all users of the Diesel starters:(not just rebuilders) The smaller newer gear reduction starter is likely more electrically efficient. It is also likely much cheaper to build. However an advantage of the old, heavy direct drive starter is that it is much more abuse tolerant: *The heavy weight makes it take much more cranking abuse before overheating. *The construction is more durable. No flimsily attached and very fragile ferrite magnets. *Fewer parts so less than can break. So don't toss your old heavy original starter. Keep it around for when you get tired of replacing those new aftermarket (or Bosch) starters, and either rebuild it yourself, offer it to a listmember or find one of those (now rare) shops that will actually rebuild your starter, not just give you a replacement. Martin (and '82 Westy 1.9TD "Poppie") ----- Original Message ----- From: Poppie Jagersand <poppie.jagersand@YAHOO.CA> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Cc: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 10:38:02 AM Subject: Re: Starter motor do-it-yourself rebuild Here are some more starter observations. I pulled apart and compared the two different types currently available for our Diesel vanagon. As Neil, Bryan and others have noticed, when you get a rebuild you may end up getting the smaller swapped for the larger and vice versa. member NYSwanderer put some photos on the web, and wondered what the differences between them are. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Diesel-Vanagon/photos/album/1381430081/pic/449269473/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc I took them apart and here is my side by side comparison: The smaller is a gear reduction starter using a planetary gear and has a permanent magnet motor. The larger one is a direct drive  motor with windings in both stator and rotor connected in series. Both AFAIK meet spec. I have a torque/power graph for the smaller one from a rebuilder. If someone got a graph for the bigger it would be interesting to compare. Please scan and email me and I'll post both. In theory the larger starter could have both a higher peak torque and a higher max rpm. That comes from the fact that both rotor and stator windings are connected in series. When stalled or at very low rpm, the high current will increase the magnetic field in both the stator and rotor. By contrast, the permanent magnet motor has a fixed magnetic field from the ferrite magnets (that may even go down if the starter gets hot). For the series motor as the rpm increases the magnetic field weakens. This field weakening yields a lower back EMF in the windings, and thus allows for a higher RPM. These are differences you learn in a motor text book. The gear reduction and design of the smaller starter may very well make up for them. That's why it would be interesting to compare test graphs. Mechanical differences: I don't think many internal parts interchange. I tried to use the studs from one on the other, but threads were different. Brushes and brush holders are different. At best there seems to be some chance that solenoids and end bushings may be the same, but I need to check. Or someone with Bosch data tables can find out. The smaller one have very brittle ferrite magnets. Don;t drop your tools or they can/will shatter. The bigger one has robust copper windings in the stator. Another note on the smaller starter: nyswanderer remarked that he saw no Bosch markings on his, so it must be an aftermarket. I however got a smaller starter that a friend had brought from Germany. That is an original Bosch with markings. I got another one with no markings. Martin (and '82 Westy 1.9TD "Poppie") ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Jagersand <jag@CS.UALBERTA.CA> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Cc: Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:12:00 PM Subject: Starter motor do-it-yourself rebuild I just rebuilt the starter for my '82 Diesel Westy. Last time I did it was in '99, I think, so the previous rebuild lasted about 8 years. Bosch rebuilt starters can run near $200 nowdays, but rebuilding it yourself is not hard. Here are some tips: (Edit 2011: I was quoted from 200 to $400 for a Bosch rebuilt, $100 to 300 for others) First check that the problem is really the starter. Measure the voltage over the starter itself while cranking, ie from the positive iput terminal on the starter to the starter housing. If it's 8-10V and the starter still is cranking slowly the starter is most likely bad. If battery voltage is ok but voltage at starter is low check voltage drop in the positive and negative circuit. When I measured I had .2V drop in the neg circuit and .9V in the positive. Of the .9V .7V was over the solenoid and .2V in ther actual cable. If it is not starting at all, no noise, no click, despite having 12V at both starter and solenoid, check connections to the solenoid, and then between solenoid and starter. This time I found that the metal tab running from the outside of the soloid terminal and connecting the solenoid winding was sheared off. I soldered on a flat piece of copper (from a water pipe ground strap) to fix it. So you determined that its the starter. All Bosch starters, gas or diesel have the same basic design, but the sizes and housings are different between different models. Get the right parts! Wear parts are basically: 1/ Bushings: 3 total. One in each end, and one in the middle. The latter I don't think carries much load. Cost: about $1 each from the Bosch distributor. 2/ Brushes: 4 in total. You can buy either a brush assembly for $45 with the 4 brushes already mounted, or 4 loose brushes for about $15 total. If you get loose brushes get ones with small u-shaped metal ends welded to the copper braid. They are much easier to solder to your brushholder. The above is Bosch prices VW dealer prices are about twice as much. Rebuild procedure: 1. Unscrew the two small screws on the commutator housing (back) this releases the brush holder. 2. Unbolt the two studs in the back. Now the commutator end comes off after removing a circlip on the end of the shaft, and the rotor is loose, but don't pull it off yet. 3. Loosen the 3 screws holding the solenoid to the front housing. 4. Between the solenoid and the starter motor is a small rubber piece. See if you can loosen it. Carefully wiggle and separate the front housing. 5. Solenoid and starter can be separated at the solenoid end. Take off the solenoid. (To prevent binding wipe off any dirt or corrosion on the solenoid plunger before reassembly) 6. Determine shape of bushings. The gear end bushing is in the bellhousing on starters for transverse engine models, and in the front housing on longitudinal engines. Replace front and rear bushings if worn. 7. To get at the middle bushing remove the ring and c-clip in front of the gear. Slide off gear assembly. Take out plate holding middle bushing. Replace if worn. 8. Check brushes. New brushes have about 8mm between the tip and the copper braid. I'd replace them if they are more than half worn. Also if the bushings were really bad the starter shaft has been riding out of center, and the brushes have been wearing irregularly and need replacement. 9. Snip off the braided copper holding the old brushes. Don't lose the springs! File off any remains from the brush holder. Solder on new brushes. Make sure they are soldered well. Each brush will pass 100's of amps at startup! 10. Inspect the commutator. If pitted (from arcing) sand/file down until clean and smooth copper. If out of round use a lathe. 11. Assemble the parts. Grease bushings and gears lightly. You don't want grease on the commutator or too much so that it can spatter on the clutch. -- Martin Jagersand University of Alberta http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jag/


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