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Date:         Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:46:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Brake Fade-wheel cylinder pull back!
Comments: To: Edward Maglott <emaglott3@GMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=response

Glad you're making progress. I am still of the opinion that even if there is a bit of piston pull back... the brake action - how well the rears contribute to slowing down .. and rear brake temps are a function of good hyd pressure from the master cylinder ( and through the brake pressure limiting valve ...and through the hoses and lines of course ) .. how well the shoes mate with the drums, and the quality of the shoe material , and the drum surface. .. all that is about 'slow down force' and rear brake temps..

if there is a bit of piston pull back ....if that even really exists , it would only result in the brake pedal moving down a bit further before the slack is taken up .. and not make much, if any , difference in rear brake performance.

here's how I adjust rear brakes on assembly .. ( or if I want to tweak them up a few clicks if I have the drum off on working brakes ..in which case I also empty out the brake dust ..consider that dust highly toxic of course )

get the adjuster rod star turned so it's starting to lengthen the rod. jiggle the shoes some to center them, put the drum over them ....take it back off. tweak on the start adjuster some more ..until the drum is slightly hard to put on. Yank on the parking brake handle some to settle the shoes into place. remove the drum .. turn on the star adjuster a few more clicks.. fit the drum on, yank on the parking brake a few times, take the drum off ...get a few more clicks ..etc.

do that until the drum just fits on ( I always line it up with the two offset drum retaining screw holes ) ... and the drum turns smoothly with some resistance. turn it a couple full turns.. drag should be even all the way around. if it goes easy-hard-easy-hard it's probably out of round. ( I have an old rear brg housing and stub axle with flange that I can mount in a bench vise and put a dial gauge on the inside of the drum to check how round they are ....some are pretty 'off.')

do that ...tweak, drum on, yank parking brake handle, drum off, tweak ..etc.. until the drum just fits on there is even and not excessive drag .. and that drum brake is adjusted. Make sure the parking brake releases completely. If I do anything to a brake ..I change the brake fluid to it, period.

that's another place to get good high firm pedal from ...bleeding brakes. I often do just the one end ..say there rears ...unless I know the van is well-due for all new brake fluid ..if that's the case..........darn ..then I have to do the Clutch Slave too .......projects grow and grow and grow often ...to get things really right.

shoot........I can't even leave the rear wheel flanges rusty ... or the drum unpainted, or the insides of steel wheels where they get rusty untreated. I paint the outsides of the drum with high temp flat black stove paint ........or black exhaust paint .. and that lasts pretty well. An unpainted bare metal drum to me .......is dumb. I also paint the front hubs .. where the wheel bolts. Just a thin spray of high temp black paint.

as I keep saying ..it's the workmanship mainly, not the parts. You can see how long I might fuss getting just one rear brake exactly right. It pays off. Scott www.turbovans.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Maglott" <emaglott3@GMAIL.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Brake Fade-wheel cylinder pull back!

> Yeah I got into my rear brakes and found one cylinder leaking. In a > hurry, got 2 cylinders from FLAPS and put them both on. Discovered > this terrible problem. Made the video. Put my original non leaking > cylinder back on and returned the cylinder. I left the one FLAPS one > on until I could order proper new ones. Now that I think of it, this > situation shouldn't account for the temp difference between the rear > drums. Neither side is going to do much braking until the slack is > out of the system. > Edward > > At 01:46 AM 9/12/2011, Old Volks Home wrote: >>I'll back up Dennis on this one. The spring inside the wheel cylinder >>is only on the ATE/FAG/FTE cylinders outa Europe these days. Brazil >>TRW/Varga and the Far Eastern variety don't have the internal springs. >> This spring is absolutely necessary for the Vanagon rear brakes to >>work properly and its for this reason I tell the sales guys at >>Airhead/VWG to only sell the OE cylinders for a Vanagon application. >> >>The TRW/Varga variety is OK for the 72-79 Bay Widnow because of the >>slightly different design in the shoe operation. Of course, I stay >>away from the Far Eastern variety because of fluid leakage and poor >>metal line connection seating. I speak from personal experience. >> >>My nickel's worth.... >>-- >>Jim Thompson >>84 GL 1.9 "Gloria" >>84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt" >>72 411 Station Wagon "Pug" >>75 914 1.8 "Nancy" >>Full Timing Since March 1999 >>oldvolkshome@gmail.com >>http://www.oldvolkshome.com >>*********************************** >>On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Dennis Haynes >><d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > The Vanagon rear brakes are really the same set up form the Bay Window >> > busses. The major differences are the lower shoe rests are fixed >> > instead of >> > adjustable and they are now self-adjusting with the take up on >> the same side >> > as the cylinder. The "original" cylinders had an internal spring the >> > pushed >> > the pistons out against the shoes to avoid the "suck back" that would >> > occur >> > creating a gap between the pistons and the shoes making for that "need >> > to >> > pump" the pedal feeling. Since the cylinders are otherwise the >> as the early >> > bus most replacements including some dealer supplied parts are missing >> > that >> > spring. So far only the ATE cylinders have it. >> > >> > And yes it makes a difference. >> > >> > Dennis


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