Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:31:59 -0700
Reply-To: Evan Mac Donald <evanm@ATT.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Evan Mac Donald <evanm@ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: No start/no spark II
In-Reply-To: <1320007355.361.YahooMailRC@web180315.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
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Another point in ingition diagnostics, that is often over looked -
watch the tachometer - if you are so equipped.
Failures in the primary side - low voltage / 12V nominal - side will leave you
with a non-responsive tach. No jumps, no wiggles. Just dead.
Failures in the secondary side - high voltage /after the coil - will leave the
tach moving "normally" - it should show some motion , even at starter-produced
RPM.
If you got the big analog clock instead, I feel sorry for you. No extra
diagnostic tool for you...
Evan Mac Donald
"...in the absence of facts, myth rushes in, the kudzu of history."
-Stacy Schiff
________________________________
From: Evan Mac Donald <evanm@att.net>
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Sent: Sun, October 30, 2011 4:42:35 PM
Subject: Re: No start/no spark II
This failure I may be able to help with. Older, pre 2.1 vans I got, and have had
for 15 years.
Counter-intuitive, and seemily non-connected. But, try a different idle sensor
box. It is the small electronic box on the engine bay sidewall, right next to
the ingition unit. Might be green, might be light brown.
My '85 just stopped. Two weeks before, my son had been driving it, and it would
not start for him at his destination. Dad went to the van, trouble shot, and
ended up with a replacment distrubutor. At the second no-go, I thought "Again?",
but I had everything - fuel, and spark. I could not imagine the cause of
no-start, if I had fuel and spark. Worked for three days on it. Finally, in
desparation, as much as anything else, I replaced the idle stabilizer. It was
the last thing I could think of that had anything to say about how the van ran.
With the swapped out unit, the van fired right up. Ran it around for a
half-hour. Just fine. Put the old stabilizer back in. Dead.
So, if you have a spare unit, try it. If you don't, just do the timing trick,
and plug the two leads together, and see if you get runnage. Worth a try.
Evan Mac Donald
"...in the absence of facts, myth rushes in, the kudzu of history."
-Stacy Schiff
________________________________
From: Skip <skiplaubach@COMCAST.NET>
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Sent: Sun, October 30, 2011 3:58:02 PM
Subject: No start/no spark II
First time poster (apologies in advance if I don't do this correctly)/three
month subscriber, and three month owner of a:
'84 1.9L Westy
Coincidentally, TJ's issue/questions are very similar to mine. No start, but I
did observe a spark from the only spark plug wire that I pulled and tested. Not
to hi-jack the post, so I put a "II" in the subject line...
Symptom: No FP-on at turn of the key. Oh yea...and no start...
Brief history: I was driving 60 mph down the road (Illinois - Hwy 47, just
north of the wind farm, five miles south of Dwight, IL) and suddenly the engine
stopped (very suddenly and without warning). Fortunately I was able to coast to
a county road cross road, pulling off the highway onto a little used gravel
road. More fortunately, SO was in the car behind me (longer story), so she
pulled over as well (I was a bit surprised at this, as well...). Most
fortunately I received my AAA "premium" three weeks prior, so was able to have
the Westy towed direct to my house (70 miles) where it now is in the
garage/shop. It's been a week.
So far:
1. Immediately (before my study of Bentley, etc.) I replaced the FP (now
Pierburg), wired a new ground at FP, and replaced both relays. Since getting
the Westy, I have replaced the plugs, wires, cap and rotor (preventative mtc.)
2. So, a new fuel pump and relays did not change things.
3. After study in Bentley, Haynes, Vanagonparts.com technical section, and a
brief discussion with one of our fine suppliers in south Jersey, I've discovered
the following:
a. Bentley, 24.32, All voltage and ohms tested OK except terminal 87 (on FP
relay). No voltage at start up. My understanding is that this is the terminal
that sends voltage to the FP (via communication from ECU?). Remember, new
relays, and I've also moved the relays around, so unless I have four bad relays
(two new and two existing) I don't think it's a simple as "bad relay".
b. Jumped 30 & 87 on the FP relay: the FP ran when I jumped these terminals.
I could hear the FP and the fuel running through the FI system. I then jumped
in the driver's seat and turned the key to start the engine. It did not start
(which now makes me suspect more than one root cause...maybe).
c. Then, I checked for spark on one plug wire. I have spark. This makes me
wonder why the van didn't start when I jumped the relay?
d Checked for continuity between terminal 85 (on FP relay) and terminal 3 on
ECU connector. Continuity OK.
So, should I replace the ECU (based on "d", "a", and "b" above)? Could the Hall
Effect Sender on the distributor be getting in the way of preventing terminal 87
from sending voltage to the FP? (I do have good voltage at the Hall Effect
Sender connecter at the distributor, by the way). Should I run the test for the
Hall Sender as described below? Perhaps I'm not getting "enough spark" to start
the van when I have the FP relay jumped?
It's been a steep learning curve for me (enjoy it very much), but I've hit a
very flat plateau. Thanks for your suggestions. Great site with some great
minds.
Skip Laubach
84 Westy 1.9L
Elgin, Illinois
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:34:19 -0400
From: TJ Hemrick
Subject: Re: No start/no spark
I heard the FP relay and the idle stabilizer control valve cycle every 90
degrees of rotation so I'm taking the Hall sensor out of the equation. NO
spark from the coil to ground though. I'm going to snag a spare coil and
an ECU just in case while I'm at the shop.
On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 13:52,
TJ Hemrick wrote:
> That's awesome, thanks!
>
> TJ
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 13:49, mark drillock wrote:
>
>> If you remove the 13mm nut that holds the distributor clamp to the block,
>> you can lift the distributor/clamp out and spin it by hand. Every 90 degree
>> turn should cause a spark. Every 90 degree turn should make the fuel pump
>> relay click and fuel pump run a second. This will tell you if the hall unit
>> is working. Of course the key must be on.
>>
>> You can actually do it just by loosening the 13mm nut most of the way and
>> lifting the distributor up 1/4" with the cap off, then spin the rotor with
>> your finger. Every 90 degrees should trigger a spark and a FP relay click.
>> If you want to try this method be sure to pull the cap first and note the
>> position the rotor points in so when you are done you can more easily get
>> the distributor back down fully. It is keyed to only go one way but knowing
>> which way it should point helps you get it into fully seated position
>> quickly. With the cap off you also pull the center spark lead from the cap
>> and hold it near engine metal to watch the strength of the spark when you
>> turn the rotor.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> TJ Hemrick wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>> Is there an easy way (e.g. side of the road/limited tools) to check if
>>> the Hall Effect Generator is working or not. Here's the situation; I
>>> felt
>>> some minor hesitation the other night but only from standstill till it
>>> got
>>> moving. Immediately, I suspected my latest POS Advance/Discount auto
>>> parts
>>> fuel pump (even though the first pump was 4 months old and failed and the
>>> current replacement is 3 weeks old, I'm ordering a new BOSCH from our
>>> trusted vendors first thing Monday). Well, we got to the next light and
>>> the van stopped running. No restart. Ran to the back and shot some
>>> starting fluid in. No change. Right then and there, I thought, this is
>>> NOT the fuel pump (well, not completely). If it didn't start on starting
>>> fluid, I'm not getting any spark. Got it home (2 miles courtesy of AAA)
>>> and tore into it today. I got a weak and intermittent spark from the
>>> coil
>>> wire grounded to the transmission bolt. I pulled a plug and did the
>>> same.
>>> No spark. I cleaned all the contacts in the cap and tip of the rotor.
>>> Still, no spark. I suspected the coil or ECU. Just out of habit, I
>>> pulled the grounds under the coil and cleaned them (they looked good).
>>> Is
>>> there any way to do a field check on the Hall Effect Generator or coil.
>>> I'll end up bumming a ride from the neighbor to the shop to get some
>>> spares but trying to do it the right way.
>>>
>>> TJ
>>> 87 GL Auto
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