Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 20:58:32 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Transmission Woes
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Hi..
all right .....sounds terminal all right.
Surprised the inspection station let you slide.
WOOFers ? ..oh, dogs.
well then ...
all you need to do is make sure you go through the clutch carefully when you
pull this engine and trans.
clutch hydrualics ...
one, make sure the free play at the top of the clutch pedal is not
excessive. It should be about 1/8th inch ..
a half inch is a lot. More than that might make the pedal engage too close
to the floor with everything else right.
Do observe the clutch lever on the trans for proper movement with someone
else pushing the clutch pedal down. Linear downward movement of the slave
pushrod is about an inch .
Next...
bleed the cluch with a manual method, watching for bubbles in the clear tube
on your bleeding rig.
If the clutch MC pumps in air, it's bad. If air bubbles never stop comming
....the MC is bad.
Look for a wet slave boot ..
if it's wet, the slave is leaking.
You can even put a big crescent wrench on the throw out lever....the one the
slave pushes on, and operate the clutch by hand, to see how it feels. That
doesn't test pilot brg of course ...just smooth operation of the pressure
plate. It should feel strong and springey.
but ....since you don't plan to invest a lot of energy in this van ..
unless bleeding the clutch system fixes it ..
doesn't sound like you are really going to fix it. Replacing the clutch
master cylinder is quite a bother.
Slave isn't bad though.
I do a slight mod to the slave bracket, so that aft nut and bolt is a stud
...makes it consdierable easier to change the slave cylinder. I also beef
up the slave bracket, as they can flex in engine conversions with stronger
cluches.
I have a few modified ones for sale..pmail for a picture if anyone is
interested.
scott
www.turbovans.com
if people want to be able to fix their own vanagon ..
this seems obivous ..........and I have noticed that some vanagon
enthusiasts don't collect tools to work on them with, and parts to fix them
with.
Tools are easy to get . The hardest part about having tools is taking
care of them and keeping track of where they are. They are super easy to
get ..
people in flea markets sell quality sockets for 50 cents sometimes...
I find tools literally laying around. I find them laying in cars at the junk
yard. Really ..'so many' people do not collect tools .............and yet
they do not depend completely on taking their vehilces to professional shops
either .......so you would think they'd collect tools. Driving a vanagon or
any old vehcile without at least a few screwdrivers and wrechnes and a
pliers or two ....is silly.
Perhaps some people don't *really* want to know how to fix their own
vehicles....which is fine.
people who do though .......It pays collect tools, methods, books, parts,
and save links to useful sites ...and all that.
and the more you do it, the better you get at it.
And just think of all the money that'll save ya ..
and if you do things really right ...then you'll know they are done right
...rather than take a chance that something was done poorly at a typical pro
car shop.
----- Original Message -----
From: "craig cowan" <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Transmission Woes
> It's terminal. Holes in the body, holes in the frame, everything on it's
> last leg. I had to make a deal with the inspection station last year
> promising not to take it back.
>
> I have two rust free busses that will be letting this one live on, and the
> car won't be junked but is becoming seasonal housing for WOOFers.
>
> I would love to fix it if it's clutch hydraulics.
> What's a good way to test it?
>
> -Craig
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <
> scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Craig..
>> first you sound like you want to get to the bottom of this mystery,
>> and fix it,
>> then you say if you do pull trans ..
>> you don't want to put it back in.
>>
>> Additonally ..
>> I have no idea how good/bad this machine of your is .....
>> personally, I think Vanagons are world class vehicles, and overall ..
>> the best VW model ever built..
>> and I could list 25 other reasonst they are valuable, unique,
>> non-replaceble etc.
>> I never part any out ..
>> unless htey are rusted badly ............crunched, a not-so-great model,
>> etc.
>>
>> I strongly doin't believe in wasting good things in order to get a good
>> part or two, or more parking space, or whatever.
>>
>> The 85 stock vanagon I last worked on that had a bad pilot bearing ..
>> was distinctly intermittant, and actually ...
>> you can put one together with no pilot brg at all and it'll still work.
>> We don't know what your pilot brg is like...
>> but in the one I'm referring to, there was just rusty dust left of the
>> pilot brg rollers.
>> The warning to presever the input shaft by not continuing to drive still
>> stands.
>>
>> I've made one good one out of two cars before ..
>> many times...
>> and through the left over one away ..
>> BUT ...........they were not Vangaons.
>>
>> name any vehicle that is so easy to work on, such a great size, comes
>> with
>> a huge world-wide family of affecianado's , has endless suppliers for,
>> drives very sporty when set up right ..
>> and you can sleep in it, and haul tons of stuff ..
>> and comes in many configurations ...
>> and about 10 other things I'm not thinking of right now.
>> They are extremely worth saving.
>>
>> I use the really bad ones to mine minor odd parts off to save other
>> vanagons.
>> I have one ..........an 85 with the interior totally burnt up ..
>> that van has been a great source of all kinds of oddball parts over the
>> years..
>> plus it's storage.
>> I realize not everyone has a place where they can keep
>> ....whatever.....15
>> + vanagons.
>>
>> Hyducalics ...less apt to be intermitant, but it's stil possible.
>> One of my sayings is that no amout of emails or talking can substitue,
>> really, for hands-on dissasembly and inspection.
>> But then I seriously enjoy working on them. It's not 'work' for me
>> ..........it's art.
>> It's seriously rewarding to take something apart...
>> and get it all cleaned, treated against corrosion, good working or new
>> parts in ....
>> I just like making things better, including fixing them.
>>
>> scott
>> www.turbovans.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "craig cowan" <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 4:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: Transmission Woes
>>
>>
>>
>> This bus is being pulled off the road in the spring and parted out.
>>> Hopefully, If I can get my new '90 on the road and inspected soon, this
>>> will happen sooner than later. I have no intention of removing the
>>> engine
>>> or the transmission from this bus, and putting them back in. Step one
>>> of
>>> "when this bus is done" will be taking the zetec to move to the syncro,
>>> So
>>> I can't justify taking it out to replace a part (or parts) on
>>> speculation
>>> and putting it back in.
>>> I'd rather bike everywhere all winter.
>>>
>>> My concerns were with the pilot bearing, but if that's what's going.....
>>> why is it intermittent?
>>> If the clutch hydraulics, same question?
>>>
>>> -Craig
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 1:24 AM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <
>>> scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I like that one ..pilot brg.
>>>> I worked on a vanagon with a bad pilot brg ...
>>>> it matched these symptoms..
>>>> sometimes OK, other times not.
>>>>
>>>> On a good portion of the vanagon waterboxer clutches I take apart, I
>>>> find
>>>> the felt dust seal for the pilot bearing missing . Clutch dust helps
>>>> the
>>>> little needle rollers turn to dust in a few years.
>>>>
>>>> there is a metal ring pressed into the center hole of the flywheel.
>>>> It's
>>>> there to retain the felt seal.
>>>> Shops or people send the flywheel to a machine shop ..
>>>> the machine shop removes that ring to machine the flywheel, then forget
>>>> about it.
>>>> The tech putting it back together doesn't notice that, or know about
>>>> it.
>>>> So .....no dust seal.
>>>> Thus .......short pilot bearing life.
>>>>
>>>> there is a way to fit a diesel vanagon pilot bearing, which as a built
>>>> in
>>>> rubber lip type seal.
>>>> Some material needs to be removed, by a machinist, on the crankshaft
>>>> side
>>>> of
>>>> the flywheel, just a few thousands since the diesel pilot brg sticks
>>>> out
>>>> of
>>>> the crankshaft hole just a tiny bit.
>>>>
>>>> and yes..
>>>> good call on deal with it soon if it is a pilot bearing gone south (
>>>> and
>>>> not
>>>> hydraulics or some other thing going on ) ....since the trans input
>>>> shaft
>>>> itself is a bearing surface..
>>>> a cheapness VW has used since the very first VW bugs in the late 40's .
>>>> On better cars like volvo or subaru, and most japanese cars..
>>>> the nose of the input shaft is not a bearing surface, and instead just
>>>> sticks into the middle of a whole self-contained sealed pilot brg.
>>>>
>>>> so you do want to preserve the nose of your input shaft for sure, and
>>>> deal
>>>> with it soon, if it is the pilot brg.
>>>>
>>>> scott
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "pickle vanagon" <greenvanagon@GMAIL.COM>
>>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 6:57 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Transmission Woes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think this should be a failed/failing pilot bearing.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This would effectively prevent the clutch from ever being truly
>>>>> disengaged,
>>>>> regardless of how well the clutch itself is working mechanically.
>>>>>
>>>>> It means that with the engine off *and* the wheels stopped, you should
>>>>> be
>>>>> able to shift fine, but with either moving at a speed very different
>>>>> from
>>>>> the other, shifting requires very good rev-matching.
>>>>>
>>>>> Being able to start with the clutch depressed is consistent with this,
>>>>> since the failing pilot bearing can provide much less resistance than
>>>>> an
>>>>> engaged clutch. It's enough resistance that the synchromeshes can't
>>>>> cope
>>>>> with, but not so much that it prevents the engine from starting.
>>>>>
>>>>> If this is what it is you want to avoid driving more with it failed
>>>>> because
>>>>> you'll eventually mess up the shaft where it rides on the pilot
>>>>> bearing.
>>>>> (Only time spent with the clutch pedal down counts against you.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Might as well replace the clutch while you have the transmission out
>>>>> (if
>>>>> you look around, there's some oil seal people like to replace at the
>>>>> same
>>>>> time too), but my money is on the little pilot bearing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 9:21 PM, craig cowan <phishman068@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have longstanding history of random transmission issues. Here's
>>>>> what's
>>>>>
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> this time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While driving today, I came to a stop light and put it in neutral.
>>>>>> When I
>>>>>> went to get going again it simply would not go into first (or second
>>>>>> gear).
>>>>>> Several tries and some rev matching of the engine finally got it and
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> ran
>>>>>> fine for maybe 40 shifts. Then it did it again, won't go into any
>>>>>> gear.
>>>>>> That seems to me like it's a clutch related problem.
>>>>>> So, I went and bled the clutch. It seems to have bled fine. There
>>>>>> wan't
>>>>>> really any air in there but the fluid coming out was shockingly dark.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is fluid in the transmission, i tired to add some and sure
>>>>>> enough,
>>>>>> it's full up (with good clean fluid, only a year or so old).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to come and go pretty randomly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have tried pumping the clutch when it does it and can't really tell
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> this makes a difference or not. I have noticed though that When it
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> it,
>>>>>> if I shut the engine off I can put it into a gear then fire the
>>>>>> engine
>>>>>> right back up just fine in gear (clutch in) and then it will work and
>>>>>> shift
>>>>>> as needed. This seems to conflict in my mind with the idea that the
>>>>>> clutch
>>>>>> is bad, or else it would have lurched when cranking in gear right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>> This is an '85 vanagon GL that I turned into a Westfalia years ago,
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> recently turned back into a 7 passanger. It has a BOSTIG zetec engine
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> recently had a break line fail to rust (making me think a clutch line
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> have started leaking...).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Craig
>>>>>> '85GL WESTY-7passanger
>>>>>> ZETEC in the back
>>>>>> '87 SUNROOF Syncro Westfalia
>>>>>> '90 GL
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
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